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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

1000 replies

mids2019 · 07/01/2026 20:19

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

Cambridge college to target elite private schools for student recruitment

Exclusive: Trinity Hall’s new policy described as a ‘slap in the face’ for state-educated students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

OP posts:
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12
Denim4ever · 08/01/2026 22:33

ScaredOfFlying · 08/01/2026 21:51

If I were a University admissions tutor I’d automatically reject any candidate who needed their parents to hold their hand and speak for them at an open day. And yes I do know that the parents are financially exposed, still no reason for them to be there at the academic sessions.

Interviewers are not going to have a clue what happened on the open day.

Marchesman · 08/01/2026 22:35

pinotnow · 08/01/2026 21:25

@nearlylovemyusername I'm sorry but private schools gaming the concessions system is well-known. Similar to how so many of them inflated grades during covid.

So many posters here just seem to blithely accept the 'fact' that privately educated students are more suited to Oxbridge, especially for arts and humanities subjects, because they are more rounded and have had the entire output of Radio 4 magically transmitted to them somehow (definitely not by listening to it, though - oh no, only plebs would need to actually listen to it) and, well, that's that.

If the figure of 19% of state school-educated students getting firsts compared to 29% of privately educated students is correct, I don't see that as a horrific figure that implies it's a waste of time trying to widen participation. Clearly most students don't get firsts, regardless of schooling.

It depends on what is understood by widening participation.

In 2017, 42 bottom socioeconomic quintile applicants were accepted from comprehensive schools. By 2021, the figure had only increased by 19, while successful top socioeconomic quintile applicants from comprehensive schools increased by 133.

Replacing privately educated students with affluent state educated students from the south of England is a waste of time, and it comes with a significant reputational cost.

Denim4ever · 08/01/2026 22:36

januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 19:32

Cambridge doesn’t make any contextual offers. We take contextual factors into account when deciding whether to make an offer, but every offer is the standard offer of A*AA (or above). We look at the school/s attended as well as other contextual flags. It’s not based on one flag more than any other.

Edited

Yes indeed, no contextual offers and the EPQ is not taken into account

Denim4ever · 08/01/2026 22:42

cantabsupervisor · 08/01/2026 20:05

Answer very often - both. They start at the Perse and breathe a sigh of relief when they can switch to the (free) Hill Road (which offers Latin but not Greek right now). It’s a well-trodden route.

Agreed, seen this many times.

I think the more important topic is why Trinity Hall is on this path of self destruct

Denim4ever · 08/01/2026 22:42

cantabsupervisor · 08/01/2026 20:05

Answer very often - both. They start at the Perse and breathe a sigh of relief when they can switch to the (free) Hill Road (which offers Latin but not Greek right now). It’s a well-trodden route.

Agreed, seen this many times.

I think the more important topic is why Trinity Hall is on this path of self destruct

Denim4ever · 08/01/2026 22:42

cantabsupervisor · 08/01/2026 20:05

Answer very often - both. They start at the Perse and breathe a sigh of relief when they can switch to the (free) Hill Road (which offers Latin but not Greek right now). It’s a well-trodden route.

Agreed, seen this many times.

I think the more important topic is why Trinity Hall is on this path of self destruct

Ineffable23 · 08/01/2026 22:47

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 22:32

If the idea is that university entrance is regardless of background then why would statistics showing what school a student went to justify using contextual offers ? That’s literally basing entrance criteria on background. Do you get why this is coming across as contradictory?

There weren't actually any contextual offers involved here but...

My friend moved over to the UK when he was 12, speaking no English, with parents who spoke no English, went to a mediocre at best state school, that didn't even offer further maths. His school didn't have anyone who had been to Oxbridge to explain how colleges worked or what the interviews would consist of. He had to work way way harder, and overcome many more obstacles, to achieve his A*AA than I did, and I still went to a state school. But it was a state school that managed 2-6 Oxbridge students a year, and which got last year's students back every autumn to help prep kids who wanted to apply.

So if we had both achieved the same a level results, he would probably have been a much better candidate than I was, because in order to reach that bar, he'd had to overcome so much more than me.

However, I do agree with the poster up thread who was saying that you can still end up with a skill gap that it's really hard to overcome. So you have super bright kids but if they haven't spent the last decade reading around and outside the curriculum that sometimes creates a distance between them and others that no amount of grit and resilience can overcome in 9 8 week terms.

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 22:51

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 22:32

If the idea is that university entrance is regardless of background then why would statistics showing what school a student went to justify using contextual offers ? That’s literally basing entrance criteria on background. Do you get why this is coming across as contradictory?

I'm using A+ to mean A star because the star symbol just makes half the text bold.

School A doesn't offer Further Maths. School B does. Alice from School A and Bea from School B both want to study Physics at Topdrawer University. Alice has three A+ in Physics, Maths, and Biology. Bea has three A+ in Physics, Maths, and Further Maths.

Topdrawer University requires A+ in Physics, Maths, and another STEM and makes offers preferentially to applicants with Further Maths. This puts Alice at a disadvantage compared to Bea because of circumstances completely unrelated to her maths skills. She might have got A+ in Further Maths, or she might have failed it, but she never had the chance to find out.

A contextual offer approach would be to make offers preferentially to applicants with Further Maths and those whose schools didn't even offer Further Maths, perhaps using a screening exam to filter out those who would have done poorly at Further Maths. But TBH, the kids who are good at Maths A-level tend to be good at Further. Without that contextual offer, the door was slammed in Alice's face before she even filled in her UCAS form.

Pacificsunshine · 08/01/2026 22:54

cantabsupervisor · 08/01/2026 10:38

OK, I'm a Cambridge humanities academic. State school background myself. Have been in the ecosystem here for twenty years. I have lots to say about the 'indy schools are full of tim-nice-but-dims who have been heavily overtutored while sink comprehensives are full of sharp-as-nails poor kids who just need to be given the chance'. Yes, this is definitely true - but it doesn't really impact the Oxbridge scene that much because we spot the over-tutored kids a mile off. A few will be admitted, but not overwhelmingly. Cambridge is not flooded by hundreds of stupid private school children who were only let in because their parents gave large donations to the college. The indy kids who are admitted, are bright kids. The question is just whether there are lots of state schools kids who, given the same training, could do as well.

Lots of people know this I know but some don't, so I shall explain the setup here. The Oxbridge system is built around what are called supervisions (Cambridge) or tutorials (Oxford). Students have one to one (or one to two) meetings with academic supervisors once a week to discuss essays that they have written specifically. These essays are designed to be more than 'informative' - students are being taught to be deliberately argumentative, provocative, interesting. To not just answer the question, but challenge the assumptions of the question. Early on, I get some of my students to write essays that argue something that they themselves don't believe. You get the idea. Now you might say that this only prepares people (men?!) to go into Westminster with its heavily bombastic, rhetorical MO - rather than producing genuinely curious, intelligent graduates who know a lot of 'facts'. In which case, Oxbridge might want to redesign what it's here to do. But I would say it actually does both.

Two observations:

  1. Overall, indy students have always presented as much better at all this - their essays have always been miles more sophisticated from the start. And I mean miles. I have had Westminster, Winchester, St Pauls and Eton (yes - it's now pretty academic there) undergrads who from the very first supervision of Michaelmas in their first year have hit the ground running with extraordinarily creative, detailed, clever arguments. The sort of stuff I wasn't turning out until my third year at best. They have been taught the art of rhetoric, they know how to digest material quickly and effectively and produce something genuinely interesting. They can reference stuff from the classics, the Bible, politics, the arts - stuff that isn't covered in the National Curriculum. Meanwhile my state-educated students, including the grammar ones, have always had a much slower start. In the past, some managed to catch up, some not. Of course, I have also had a whole lot of less-intelligent indy students who just coasted, and some state educated students who were writing essays that were 'fine' early on, but it's true to say that 99% of the time, my very top undergraduates were always from indy schools and 99% of the time, my struggling ones were always from state schools. I know this sounds like hyperbole; it's genuinely not. The top ones are not just 'tutored' - they have been completely immersed in a world of curiosity and intertextuality that doesn't exist in the state sector where a class of 30 needs to be regularly evacuated if one kid is having a meltdown, or even just in a place where there aren't the resources to take the time for this stuff. So even if they get into Cambrdige, they're already turning up at a disadvantage.

  2. Over the last 10/15/20 years, the decline in the standard of undergraduates that come up to Cambridge over that time has been HUGE. I mean, seriously seriously worrying. I now have students turning up who don't really know how to write essays. Some don't write in proper sentences. And this is Cambridge! These students can't structure a simple argument, let alone write a 2500 essay every week that involves reading several books and journal articles, and finding something vaguely 'original' to say. And this is most seen in the state students - so the advantage gap I described above between the indy and the state students who get in is widening.

This is entirely the fault of lack of funding, and the National Curriculum which no longer has very high expectations, which indy schools are able to mitigate, but state schools don't always have the resources to do. It's also the case that many state schools are not even offering some of these subjects or opportunities. Music is a case in point - you are just simply not going to produce so many good musicians if you 1) don't actually offer the subject, but also 2) don't have a chamber orchestra or chapel choir. Nobody expects the Royal College of Music to accept someone who can't play the violin as well but possibly has the 'potential' just because they didn't go to the Yehudi Menuhin School, so why are we expecting Cambridge to do that? Likewise, nobody expects the Arsenal junior team to accept someone who only has the 'potential' over someone who is already showing that potential fulfilled. Kings College Cambridge has had a reputation now for accepting a high percentage of state school students - the upshot now is that nobody (and I mean not one) in the back row of Kings College Choir is actually at Kings College. Because the best singers will be coming from places that nurture the choral tradition, and that can only be in a place with a chapel choir. I think that's a little sad.

I don't think anyone really believes that indy school kids are innately cleverer (aside from the small percentage benefiting from genetic advantage of generations of success). There will be plenty of intelligent state kids who had they been to indy schools, would have turned out to produce even more sophisticated arguments. The problem is that 18 is just too late to start this process. Lady Margaret Hall in Oxford spearheaded a foundation course for students, and now an increasing number of colleges at both institutions are running it. But by this age, a different style, approach, habits have set in, and it's very difficult to reverse and build on. It would simply require extremely intense and expensive 1-to-1 supervision over a long period to bring out the true potential of all the 'brilliant but failed' state kids. Which really isn't the job of Oxbridge colleges - it would be a much cheaper, easier, more effective job if it were done much earlier. I suppose you could make a case that Oxbridge could start an intensive programme for state school students much earlier - but really this stuff needs to be lived and breathed. It can't be a few weekend courses here and there. Most supervisors are academics whose 'real' work is research. So when they supervise undergrads, they want to talk about actual content and ideas, not have to go through their essays finding typos, looking for where they've just used ChatGPT. That's not a good use of academics' time or college's money.

I don't know what the answer is for Oxbridge, but it's not to just let more state school children in and try to 'top them up'. The result of that is 1) the state school kids are failed - they never turn out as bright, and they drop out more than the indy ones; 2) the standards of these institutions just keep dropping, because not only are the standards of graduates lower, but the universities are spending lots of money and resources on trying to bring up the standards of a few by miniscule amounts. The cost/benefits is woeful.

Like I say, I don't know the answer for Oxbridge. But I entirely understand why Trinity Hall has done this, and said it publicly, in a hope to attract some of the sorts of kids I've described above.

Hands down, this post wins the thread. Not sure there is mych anyone can add or credibly dispute.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 22:59

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 22:51

I'm using A+ to mean A star because the star symbol just makes half the text bold.

School A doesn't offer Further Maths. School B does. Alice from School A and Bea from School B both want to study Physics at Topdrawer University. Alice has three A+ in Physics, Maths, and Biology. Bea has three A+ in Physics, Maths, and Further Maths.

Topdrawer University requires A+ in Physics, Maths, and another STEM and makes offers preferentially to applicants with Further Maths. This puts Alice at a disadvantage compared to Bea because of circumstances completely unrelated to her maths skills. She might have got A+ in Further Maths, or she might have failed it, but she never had the chance to find out.

A contextual offer approach would be to make offers preferentially to applicants with Further Maths and those whose schools didn't even offer Further Maths, perhaps using a screening exam to filter out those who would have done poorly at Further Maths. But TBH, the kids who are good at Maths A-level tend to be good at Further. Without that contextual offer, the door was slammed in Alice's face before she even filled in her UCAS form.

Edited

But what does this have to do my questions ?

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background, then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers. Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 23:03

Pacificsunshine · 08/01/2026 22:54

Hands down, this post wins the thread. Not sure there is mych anyone can add or credibly dispute.

Yes agreed, excellent post.

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 23:08

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 22:59

But what does this have to do my questions ?

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background, then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers. Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

If someone's background is keeping them out of uni, for example because their school doesn't offer Further Maths, then university entrance isn't "regardless of background", is it? Under such circumstances, uni entrance is very much dependant on background, such as your family's ability to afford a house in the right catchment area.

No one is suggesting that we discard entrance criteria. I am saying that entrance criteria should take earlier life opportunities into consideration where it's reasonable to do so.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 23:12

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 23:08

If someone's background is keeping them out of uni, for example because their school doesn't offer Further Maths, then university entrance isn't "regardless of background", is it? Under such circumstances, uni entrance is very much dependant on background, such as your family's ability to afford a house in the right catchment area.

No one is suggesting that we discard entrance criteria. I am saying that entrance criteria should take earlier life opportunities into consideration where it's reasonable to do so.

Edited

I get this specific scenario around further maths which I’ll address but you’re still not answering my question;

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background, then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers. Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

Pacificsunshine · 08/01/2026 23:14

The pressure should be lower down the chain. Cambridge’s expertise is tertiary education, not remedial secondary education.

How did secondary state school failure become their responsibility?

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 23:36

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 23:12

I get this specific scenario around further maths which I’ll address but you’re still not answering my question;

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background, then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers. Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

If we can see that School C gets lower A level grades across the board than School D ten miles away, and there isn't a really obvious reason why, such as School D being a grammar or School C being a comprehensive that shares catchment with a grammar, then we can't just assume that the kids in School C are stupider. There's going to be another reason. So you would look at causal factors, such as average house prices in School C's catchment compared to D's to get an idea of whether D's parents can afford tutors but C's can't. On that basis, you might make an offer A+A+A or A+AA instead of A+A+A+ to the kids from School C. This is basically because tutored kids tend to do better than non-tutored ones of the same aptitude.

@Ineffable23's post of 22:47 explains the opportunity gap better than I can: So if we had both achieved the same a level results, he would probably have been a much better candidate than I was, because in order to reach that bar, he'd had to overcome so much more than me.

What should never happen is applicants being made offers when they don't have an A-level or equivalent in a required subject, nor offers being made A+A+A+ to some kids and a much lower offer, like CCC to others, unless the much lower offer is for Foundation Year entry. So, coming back to Further Maths, if that's a required subject for a Maths degree, then the kid who lacks it can't read Maths without taking some kind of foundation programme first. Where the A-level contains prior knowledge needed for the degree, that can't be compromised on.

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 23:41

Pacificsunshine · 08/01/2026 23:14

The pressure should be lower down the chain. Cambridge’s expertise is tertiary education, not remedial secondary education.

How did secondary state school failure become their responsibility?

I agree entirely here. Contextual offers are a "stop-gap" solution. The correct solution is proper investment in school buildings and teaching staff, so that subject offerings are less of a postcode lottery and there's the staff and the rooms available to offer low-uptake subjects.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 23:42

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 23:36

If we can see that School C gets lower A level grades across the board than School D ten miles away, and there isn't a really obvious reason why, such as School D being a grammar or School C being a comprehensive that shares catchment with a grammar, then we can't just assume that the kids in School C are stupider. There's going to be another reason. So you would look at causal factors, such as average house prices in School C's catchment compared to D's to get an idea of whether D's parents can afford tutors but C's can't. On that basis, you might make an offer A+A+A or A+AA instead of A+A+A+ to the kids from School C. This is basically because tutored kids tend to do better than non-tutored ones of the same aptitude.

@Ineffable23's post of 22:47 explains the opportunity gap better than I can: So if we had both achieved the same a level results, he would probably have been a much better candidate than I was, because in order to reach that bar, he'd had to overcome so much more than me.

What should never happen is applicants being made offers when they don't have an A-level or equivalent in a required subject, nor offers being made A+A+A+ to some kids and a much lower offer, like CCC to others, unless the much lower offer is for Foundation Year entry. So, coming back to Further Maths, if that's a required subject for a Maths degree, then the kid who lacks it can't read Maths without taking some kind of foundation programme first. Where the A-level contains prior knowledge needed for the degree, that can't be compromised on.

Lol, you’re not going to answer are you?

Notanorthener · 08/01/2026 23:56

Denim4ever · 08/01/2026 22:36

Yes indeed, no contextual offers and the EPQ is not taken into account

That doesn’t tell the whole story.

On results day when some applicants won’t have met their offer, contextual considerations do come into play in deciding whether these students with lower grades will still be accepted (if there are spare places as Oxbridge don’t go into clearing).

This is probably how the ex-Oxford Union President still got in with grades well below Oxford’s standard offer.

So not contextual offers pre A level but on results day, yes.

knowthescore · 09/01/2026 01:02

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 23:42

Lol, you’re not going to answer are you?

I did. That is the answer. I put it to you that your question might be poorly-worded.

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background,

Yes. Your parents being too poor to afford to send you to private school, or too poor to live in-catchment for an OFSTED Outstanding school, shouldn't be a bar to attending university. As long as you can demonstrate to the admissions tutor that you can handle the material and have a genuine strong interest, you should be considered.

you then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers.

I literally laid out two mechanisms whereby statistics, aka numerical facts, about a school and its surroundings can be used to determine whether a contextual offer is appropriate to determine the most capable and keen students. One was whether the school offered Further Maths at all, which is a binary value of "they offer 0 FM A-levels" or "they offer 1 FM A-level". The other was a slightly more involved example concerning the probability that the students had been tutored, based on exam results from that school and house prices in the catchment area.

Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

They aren't.

DogEard · 09/01/2026 01:53

Are the Renaissance Scholars turned out by the elite private schools not applying to Cambridge, or are they just not applying to Trinity Hall? (seems to be sinking into the bottom half of the Tompkins table, according to Wiki, with not even a hill for an excuse). Some Cambridge colleges are more equal than others. The clue is in the word endowment. If the top flight classicists and musicians are a vanishing breed, then it's a buyer's market. Unlike in STEM where tactical college applications are a must whatever the educational background.

On the other hand, where the renaissance all-rounders are applying is North America, home to the attractively flexible Liberal Arts degree. They can either a) stay in the UK and study classics and come out really really strong in classics and get s job... teaching classics? or b) go to the US and double major / minor in classics (for their soul) and financial econ (for their pocket). The elite US schools have professionalisation programmes built in, internship opportunities, alumni networks.... expensive yes, but not if you are used to paying 60k for your elite public school. Unsurprisingly, the US schools are hoovering up kids from top UK schools, because they see the business case to do so.

PfizerFan · 09/01/2026 02:18

@cantabsupervisor very interesting, pretty depressing

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 09/01/2026 06:10

Pacificsunshine · 08/01/2026 22:54

Hands down, this post wins the thread. Not sure there is mych anyone can add or credibly dispute.

So sad, I learnt Latin and played in an orchestra at state school. But you are right. State school kids just can’t compete.

BlearyEyes2 · 09/01/2026 06:35

knowthescore · 09/01/2026 01:02

I did. That is the answer. I put it to you that your question might be poorly-worded.

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background,

Yes. Your parents being too poor to afford to send you to private school, or too poor to live in-catchment for an OFSTED Outstanding school, shouldn't be a bar to attending university. As long as you can demonstrate to the admissions tutor that you can handle the material and have a genuine strong interest, you should be considered.

you then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers.

I literally laid out two mechanisms whereby statistics, aka numerical facts, about a school and its surroundings can be used to determine whether a contextual offer is appropriate to determine the most capable and keen students. One was whether the school offered Further Maths at all, which is a binary value of "they offer 0 FM A-levels" or "they offer 1 FM A-level". The other was a slightly more involved example concerning the probability that the students had been tutored, based on exam results from that school and house prices in the catchment area.

Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

They aren't.

Nope. To remind you this was the question:

You agreed that university entrance should be regardless of background, then said that statistics regarding state or private school achievement can be used to justify contextual offers. Those seem to be opposing views, can you explain how you reconcile that specifically.

This was the example you gave of statistics ‘provided that they can be objectively justified, e.g. by statistics. When 29% of private school kids achieve what 19%’.

You’re arguing entrance criteria should be based on background in line with your own biases in the same paragraph as stating it should be regardless of background.

I didn’t really expect you to be able to a see it, but the hypocrisy in one post was just too irresistible to not point out.

pinotnow · 09/01/2026 06:40

Sorry, I don't agree that @cantabsupervisor wins the thread. These comments seem to me to be complacent and defeatist:

the state school kids are failed - they never turn out as bright, and they drop out more than the indy ones;

Never? They never turn out as bright? Well, nearly 20% of them get firsts, so clearly some do. And why do they drop out? Doubtless sometimes it is because they can't keep up with the work but could there also be other factors? Financial difficulties perhaps (I know Oxbridge has more money for this than other places but I assume it's not limitless funds available) or feeling they don't fit in with the other students. I mentioned my ds being taken aback by how many students at his college are from private schools and even if not, are from London. It has been a massive culture shock and there have been some pretty crass comments from some of these students. Ds is pretty thick-skinned and also pig-headed but I can imagine some people struggling in that environment.

I suppose you could make a case that Oxbridge could start an intensive programme for state school students much earlier - but really this stuff needs to be lived and breathed. It can't be a few weekend courses here and there.

While I completely agree that it shouldn't be the responsibility of Oxbridge to fund all of these programmes, the quote seems to imply there's no point doing any of it anyway as unless you are from the right sort of home, none of it will stick. That's a horrendous outlook and would seem to amount to a shrugging of the shoulders.

TheaBrandt1 · 09/01/2026 06:46

So what is your conclusion canta? That we give up and accept that only those young people whose parents can afford £50k per annum public school fees should go to Oxbridge?! Back to the 1920s where a small group of the wealthy go to the top schools, dominate the top universities, snaffle the top jobs and the rest of us doff our caps to them?! I don’t think so!

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