dd 16 - law

[BodenOrBodum]

Dd wants to do Law at university. She is very academic and predicted excellent GCSEs. I know next to nothing about the law profession but would like to help improve her chances to get a place at a good university. She is a passionate reader, loves politics and history and has a strong sense of social justice. While very academic and high achieving she is going through a quite insecure phase and lacks confidence in herself.

I am aware there is the LNAt test, which she might need to take. When should she start practicing for this, and how does she best prepare for this? Is there an app, books? When does she sign up for the LNAt and how?

Are there any courses to prepare prospective applicants to improve chances of getting a place on a reputable law course as there are for medicine and other subjects? Doing an internships seems impossible, she tried and was turned down in year 10. She will be looking for a part-time job in the summer after her GCSEs, are there any type of jobs altho would be looks at favourably?

I have seen ads for summer schools most of which cost £££ - are there any more affordable type of law summer school courses and are the any good'? We do not qualify for any widening participation type of schemes.

I practise in crime in London if she wants to spend a week or a few days in court would be happy to talk her though the options.

A fairly standard offer by most commercial sets of chambers is an award of £80-90k, of which £25-30k can be drawn during the BVC year and the rest paid in monthly instalments over the 12 month pupillage, in addition to which most sets will guarantee a minimum billing in the second 6 months of pupillage.

@Elektra1 Why keep talking about commercial chambers and that level of pupilage award? Yes some are £100,000 but very very few. These elite sets often take Oxbridge only and most dc won’t get into the starting stalls at all. Nearly everyone has to play to their strengths and certainly the op asking about “social justice” is a million miles away from those types of chambers. It’s wholly unrealistic.

Legal Cheek list around 34 chambers as offering pupilage awards north of £80,000. That’s very few when around 450 plus pupillages are on offer. Plus these chambers don’t necessarily give pupils tenancy. It’s now common for pupils to churn after a year of pupilage. That’s yet more stress. Obviously some dc get the best pupillages but many aren’t in that lofty territory and many take several rounds of applications to get anything such is the over supply of well qualified applicants.

@OhDear111 you seem to have taken against me and I’m not sure why, given that in my earlier posts I have made the point that the appeal of Oxbridge degrees is waning (for social mobility reasons), have DMed you personally with a suggestion I thought might be of interest for your DD, and the rest of my posts on this thread simply provide information about routes into practice as either a solicitor or barrister focusing on commercial as opposed to criminal or family law practice. As someone who followed a slightly unusual route into the legal profession myself, and who is now a partner in the firm I work at, with involvement in trainee recruitment each year, I do have some relevant experience which MNers interested in routes into the law may find useful.

I won’t bother saying any more on this thread, since clearly my suggestions seem to irritate you.

@Elektra1 I absolutely have not taken against you but you have been talking about barristers and not solicitors and that’s a different route and needs different considerations. I don’t know much about the new solicitor route other than it’s hard!

I started out yesterday morning talking about routes into law as a solicitor in response to the OP. Today a different poster asked questions about routes to the bar, to which I responded today. Threads evolve.

@Elektra1 As dd is a barrister I do know the route to becoming one. It’s not true that chambers pay for the conversion course, for example.

The London issue regarding training is about networking. Barristers network as they are self employed. There is an advantage to networking at your Inn of Court and you will get to chat to Supreme Court judges and others of note. It’s useful. If you aren’t wanting to be London based it makes no odds. It’s not about getting pupillage, it’s about getting known.

The bar has worked very hard to try to eradicate this sort of thing in order to create a more level playing field. Pupillage should be based on merit, not on whether at the earliest stage of your journey to becoming a barrister you had access to a particular room or person. Years ago the only place you could train for the bar was London and the profession recognising this prohibited very talented people financially, opened it up to the regions. As I said earlier if any set of chambers which deliberately ignored talented candidates because they couldn’t afford to live in London when they studied for their professional qualifications, they would be best avoided. I’m sure the Bar Council would also be interested to know why they were discriminating on the grounds of social and economic background and I don’t doubt, given the work they do to get rid of this nonsense, wouldn’t hesitate to take action against them.

@Lobbygobbler Networking is not about getting pupillage and I didn’t say it was!!! She met no one at her Inn or at her GDL provider that was a on a pupillage selection panel. However mini pupilage is another matter and all dc should apply for them. Sofa surf if you have to!

The reason networking matters is because barristers are self employed. As a result young barristers want to get on with senior juniors or KCs who then get the young barrister to work with them. It’s all about good cases and career building. It’s not about getting pupillage in the first place. Everyone knows it’s done on merit. But so many young people are very talented the decisions are a fine line.

Chambers are paying a pupillage award from barristers own money!!! They really don’t pay accommodation when dc is a pupil. They are not charities. Many dc can draw down on the pupilage award for the training course and there are big £££ scholarships available from the Inns to pay course fees. The Inns of Court also have residential scholarships and these can be applied for. They definitely help with living in London! If dc prefer the regional bar, that’s an option too but probably lower earnings.

I know this. I survived on a generous scholarship award from my Inn.

Do you realise a lot of young people won’t know a single person in London? Sofa surfing isn’t an option for everyone, it certainly wasn’t for me.

@Lobbygobbler I think you over complicate everything. If you knew about scholarships you could have written about them. In DDs case it paid for the course but the residential scholarships are more, but won’t pay for food! Sofa surfing is what some do and they meet London dc at university. Some commute from home. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

I haven’t over complicated anything. I am happy to report I most definitely did receive a scholarship. One of the proudest moments of my life and got me out of a hole I can tell you.
I think there may be an issue at play here that you fail to recognise not everyone’s experience prior to the Bar is the same as your DD. I didn’t know a soul in London. Sofa surfing wasn’t an option because of that. When I qualified our only option was to study in London and I welcomed the opening up to the regions because living in London while studying isn’t economically viable for a lot of people.

@Lobbygobbler I have nothing against the regions but it depends where you wish to work and what work you want - that’s all.

I’m not saying you have anything against the regions. I am simply pointing out that some of the information you give people is not accurate.

@Lobbygobbler I’ve given info based on dd. You don’t agree with it and that’s fine. Doesn’t make it wrong though.

I know for a fact it isn’t right. I literally know young people, who are absolutely stellar, firsts from Cambridge etc, who went to live back home while doing their conversations and professional qualifications. They had no trouble getting training contacts and pupillages in the very best firms and chambers and I mean the very top tiers. I’m related to one and others are family friends. The idea they wouldn’t get these fantastic jobs because they didn’t study in London is not true.

That depends on the type of law; paralegal is already being impacted, but my child is a litigation lawyer and it is unlikely this will be impacted, they do use ai to help them but litigation will probably remain steadfast,

op, there are many routes now for a solicitor , mine did the standard route, the degree, then the lpq over two years whilst working as a paralegal for experience at a huge global law firm,, we funded the lpq, she then got a trainee placement at another large global firm, top ten globally then moved to magic circle not long after qualifying, where she’s been for the last few years,

it’s hard work, hugely competitive, she was top graduate in her university, which was a high ranked red brick Russell group university, graduated with a very high first and was one of rhe few to get a training place.

it is also not very well paid at rhe start unless you get into one of the large global firms and are in commercial /corporate.

she needs to think is it solicitor or barrister she wishes, and what area of law interests her. She doesn’t need legal work experience. But work experience in itself helps be it retail, hospitality etc,

@Lobbygobbler I did not say they would not get London pulillage! I said it makes networking more difficult and that has value. Look at chambersstudent.co.uk for evidence of that. It’s also the case that plenty of pupils don’t get taken on as tenants. Around 30%. So it’s wise to have all the info before embarking on this career.

Plus Oxbridge is still a very clear advantage at top sets regardless of where you do training courses. If you were looking at Northumbria, for example, with training following a degree in Criminology from there, there could be a very different outcome. With 2400 wannabe barristers on the courses, and eventually around 300 getting tenancy (some after several years of having a go) it’s a very hard profession to ace. However Oxbridge gives a great start.

I do agree with @Lobbygobbler in that I think the point here, is that your particular DD's experience is a single data point, not a hard and fast rule, despite you presenting it as such. It is a limited (and somewhat out of date) 2nd hand experience.

It might be helpful moving forward to qualify statements as such, so that people don't go off thinking there's literally only one way things happen, based on your repeated assertions, when that is clearly not the case.

If you are on Facebook there is a group called what I wish I knew about university. It is a brilliant place for advice on unis, courses, personal statements, supra curricula activities. If you join then search law you will see loads of posts. It has been hugely helpful to me, I have 2 at uni now and a 3rd going in 27 who also wants to do law. Not all unis require the LNAT either.

@BeNimbleUmberGoose I stated DDs route. However it’s the route of her friends too. Plus it’s not secondhand is it - this is a mum’s forum. Just because someone went through the system before any regional centres were available (so in the dark ages) and doesn’t recognise the huge advantage of Oxbridge or networking that everyone else does know about, I would suggest what I’m saying isn’t a one off. DD has loads of chambers and Inn friends and their routes are varied but my DDs is pretty normal. I’ve no idea why you think it’s not. I’ve also explained what dc do between qualifying and starting pupillage and no one is giving stats on how many non London trained barristers are getting tenancy in London. It would be interesting to know.

I think you fail to mention I know lots of young people who are going through this exact process now.

I do think a lot of the information you provide is useful, relevant and helpful. But it is ALL 2nd hand because it is not your personal experience. That is what 2nd hand means.

@BeNimbleUmberGoose But mums posting on MN talk about dc! On your rather narrow interpretation, there’s loads of advice that you label second hand! That’s ludicrous when DDs experience is relatively recent. Someone posting from 34 years ago is surely less relevant and this is something posters do all the time. Quite often it’s not remotely relevant. I talk to dd. I know some of her friends since GDL and BPTC days. I go as a guest to Inn events and I talk to peoole. Yes it’s not DD posting but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong or somehow not worthy.