dd 16 - law

[BodenOrBodum]

Dd wants to do Law at university. She is very academic and predicted excellent GCSEs. I know next to nothing about the law profession but would like to help improve her chances to get a place at a good university. She is a passionate reader, loves politics and history and has a strong sense of social justice. While very academic and high achieving she is going through a quite insecure phase and lacks confidence in herself.

I am aware there is the LNAt test, which she might need to take. When should she start practicing for this, and how does she best prepare for this? Is there an app, books? When does she sign up for the LNAt and how?

Are there any courses to prepare prospective applicants to improve chances of getting a place on a reputable law course as there are for medicine and other subjects? Doing an internships seems impossible, she tried and was turned down in year 10. She will be looking for a part-time job in the summer after her GCSEs, are there any type of jobs altho would be looks at favourably?

I have seen ads for summer schools most of which cost £££ - are there any more affordable type of law summer school courses and are the any good'? We do not qualify for any widening participation type of schemes.

If you are good, then criminal law at the bar pays well. It’s absurd to suggest you can’t make a decent living out it particularly if you take silk or move into something like financial crime. A lot of people prefer the challenges and excitement of the criminal bar rather than family law which tends to be less intellectually challenging from a legal perspective.
we have a few lawyers in the family including youngsters. They didn’t do law at university and seem to have had little trouble getting training contracts. Now earning about £160k pa in London. Not bad for a twenty something.

@Lobbygobbler Did you know criminal barristers went on strike?! After expenses it’s very difficult for baby barristers to make decent money. Criminal barristers are not financial fraud barristers. Totally different people. Taking silk? At what age? How many years before a barrister gets this? Plus the majority don’t and it doesn’t lead to immediate riches either. It’s not a choice that a barrister makes unilaterally - they have to effectively tick a lot of boxes.

Family Law has its own specialisms and is a division of law with its own courts. Like many areas of law, it depends what interests you and it certainly matters to many individuals on a human scale. I’m sure people like Lady Shackleton don’t think they a lightweight lawyers.

Yes I am aware that criminal barristers went on strike. I’m also aware they got a 15% increase in fees which is pretty generous compared to public sector jobs.
I don’t know where you got your information about ‘financial fraud’ not being undertaken by criminal barristers. Fraud is a criminal offence. It’s absurd that you suggest otherwise. The people who do this type of work are not ‘totally different people.’
As for silk, lots of people take it relatively early with criminal practices. I’m afraid the term ‘baby barrister’ gives me the ick but it really doesn’t take too long for people to get going, if they are good at what they do. I know so many people who make an extremely good living from their criminal practice. I just don’t recognise much of what you say at all as being true.
As for Lady Shackleton, again this is an absurd argument. I could give you a hundred examples of extremely successful criminal barristers who equal if not exceed her professionally speaking. The upcoming Chair of the Bar is a criminal practitioner for example. Somehow she has managed to stumble her way through extreme impecuniosity to get there…

Trust the thread about becoming a lawyer to get heated 😂😂

Lawyer here. I would recommend focussing on acing exams, going to a good university, and getting on as many vacation schemes as possible. Many firms (including mine) pick candidates for training contracts from those that have completed vacation schemes. If you can wrangle any other work experience, do that too. Firms like to see people are keen and proactive. Definitely ask your lawyer friends for favours, we are all just geeks and love sharing so I’m sure it’ll be exciting for them to feel useful to you!

My advice to you, OP, is that I would encourage her confidence. Law is a tricky profession and a key skill when you are working is to be confident in your abilities. Otherwise it’s just quite stressful. I’m speaking from my own experience!

Questions over becoming a solicitor or barrister can be answered further down the line through work experience and careers fairs. I wouldn’t worry about it now. Now solicitors can gain higher rights it’s possible barristers could be replaced by solicitors over the long term… but apparently solicitors may get replaced by AI! I personally think we can’t crystal ball gaze on this stuff so you’ve just got to get some good skills and good experience and see where life takes you. If you worry too much you’ll get nothing done!

Good luck!!

Quite @Supperlite 😂Nice advice x

If you want to be a barrister - particularly a top commercial one - you should study law. Fine not to if you want to do family, criminal etc. It is also cheaper to study law from the offset rather than convert - also you don’t get to do mooting (important for barristers) if you don’t read law. If you want to be a solicitor, study what you like - but be prepared for cost of conversion course if you don’t get a TC. If you know you want to be a lawyer, read law. My DD bought a couple of LNAT books on Amazon and did 2-3 hours a week for 6 weeks or so. She got 36 in LNAT.

My DD knows a fair few ppl who knew they wanted to be barristers but were advised by parents/school that the easier route into Oxbridge would be to study MFL, classics etc. That is not the right way to look at it. They didn’t get the mooting opportunities etc and have ended up in family, criminal etc - if you want to maximise your opportunities as a barrister, study law. Better to be at Durham or Bristol reading law than at Oxbridge reading classics

I don’t agree with that advice @Operafanatic

Looking at recent tenants at some leading barrister chambers they have not all studied law at undergrad by any means. They are however very bright and have distinguished themselves academically both at university snd beyond. Many had scholarships from the inns of court for example. Interestingly a fair few have had other careers first. They have gained this experience to transfer to law.

I do think dc should have a think about barrister or solicitor early. Self confidence and presenting a case isn’t the same for most solicitors. yes, converting is an extra year and possibly extra cost, but it suits some. The very bright will still be successful.

I don’t see the debate here as heated - it’s just opinions. Plus most barristers are not top commercial ones! This is another myth! Very few attain this or KC status. However any lawyer, whether by doing law or something else at university, needs to be aware jobs are hard to get and the young person does need to evaluate what sort of person they are because this really does inform career choices.

I am a lawyer and if I were in school now considering a career in law I would not bother with university and would go the solicitor apprentice route instead. No student debt, start aged 18 and qualify a few years later on exactly the same salary as graduate NQs, but with loads more experience.

That said, I’m not sure I’d be considering a career in law at all if I were at school now, since AI is transforming the profession and I think will significantly reduce the number of junior roles available within the next 5 years.

@Elektra1 So it will reduce apprenticeships too. How many apprenticeships are available? With whom and where? What earnings potential? Big London firms are still not offering many.

I think you might need to do a bit more research, as most big London firms do offer solicitor apprenticeships and have done for many years. I used to work for a silver circle firm and they have been running apprenticeships since at least 2019.

At my old firm they pay £25k pa during the first year of the apprenticeship, increase for each subsequent year and then standard NQ pay on qualification (at that firm, NQ pay is currently £90k).

Here are the details of the apprenticeship programme at DLA Piper (not my old firm), which is an excellent firm, one of the largest international law firms: careers.dlapiper.com/early-careers/europe/uk/apprenticeships.html

Actually the DLA page isn’t good as it’s just a form. Here’s the Hogan Lovells one: https://ukearlycareers.hoganlovells.com/what-we-offer/solicitor-apprenticeships

Or Bird & Bird: https://www.twobirds.com/en/careers/united-kingdom/early-careers/solicitor-apprenticeship-programme

Look up the top 50 (or 100) law firms and just work down the list. They pretty much all do them.

@Elektra1 The apprenticeships are tiny when compared to grad intake. The big companies still take grads in large numbers and use apprenticeships for creating a more diverse staff profile. Perhaps look at the numbers?

From my anecdotal experience as a partner in a law firm involved in graduate and non-grad recruitment, and decisions on which trainees get offered NQ jobs, I can tell you that your chances of being kept on on qualification are significantly better as a solicitor apprenticeship than as a graduate trainee.

Look at the Legal Cheek website for useful information. Also, take a look at RollonFriday (read with large pinch of salt as it is somewhat scurrilous but very funny). These both have guides to law firms and Legal Cheek does virtual law fairs and webinars. There are some useful reading lists for aspiring lawyers - Oxford Scholastica has one. Take a look online to see what reading lists you can find. I always suggest Bleak House as a starter! The main skill to have is reading - does she like reading? The best course I ever attended was one on effective reading, so see if you can find something like that. Everyone is talking up AI but in my experience it is crap - my system insists on addressing me in Spanish and I have to go through all sorts of convolutions to persuade it to talk to me in English. And AI makes things up constantly - it's exhausting to use and pretty useless as you have to redo everything. There will have to be a quantum leap forward before it is any use. But the law surrounding AI is fascinating!!

Also, the beauty of the different timelines of these routes to qualification is that, although numbers of apprentices relative to graduate trainees is low, you can apply for an apprenticeship as a school leaver and also apply to uni. If you get the apprenticeship, my view is that it would be crazy not to take it. Six extra years of earning, getting experience, getting contributions into your pension (which will compound massively over your career), no student debt. If you don’t get an apprenticeship, you can still go to uni and then law school and hope to get a TC.

I wouldn’t read law. I didn’t, and most of the partners and senior barristers I know also didn’t. History and Classics are common degree subjects for those at the bar. If she is good at science, a science background is great if she wants to go into IP, or any kind of practice focusing on the tech sector.

@Elektra1Those stats are all available at the large firms. They keep around 80% of their grads. As they have so few apprentices comparison is difficult. One thing to bear in mind though, apprentices don’t get degrees from Oxbridge or Durham. Those degrees can have currency if dc are top in year etc.

On the basis that only 1 person can be top in year, I wouldn’t be too focused on that. Most law firms also now focus on diversity and social mobility and the allure of Oxbridge is waning. One firm I worked at ONLY recruited from non-RG universities, and we had some incredible trainees.

Whilst most law firms keep the majority of their graduates, there are always unlucky ones who either don’t get kept on because they’re just not up to the mark, or who could be kept on but find there is no vacancy in the team they want to qualify into. So retention stats are not that useful as a guideline because no firm can guarantee at the time they offer you a TC that there will be an NQ job for you on qualification in the team you want.

Also, unpredictable economic events can massively affect retention. I qualified in 2010 in the wake of the 2008 crisis. I was one of only 2 out of 25 trainees who got jobs on qualification. In the current world with Trump, tariffs, wars - anything could happen.

Summer vacation schemes are key to getting a TC if she’s dead set on uni. You do those in your second year summer of your degree. Most firms will just offer the good vac schemers a TC at the end of the vac scheme.

But I see no downside to applying for an apprenticeship and just seeing if she gets one.

That’s my tuppence-worth! Good luck to your daughter, I hope she goes far. It is an interesting and satisfying career.

Legal cheek posts the attached info. Apprenticeships first.

Now training contracts

Of course no harm in applying for apprenticeships at all. Again the stats regarding Oxbridge show these dc ace selection tests. So there’s not a huge change in university diversity. Diversity comes from apprenticeship route.

Of course London is only part of the picture but many solicitors will tell you earnings aren’t great in some areas of the country and, in my view, it is something young people need to consider. Where might you want to work? In an area you know, or in London? What do you see a career in law looking like? Are you someone who won’t like long hours? Do you relish world wide opportunities or are you happy being a duty solicitor turning up at police stations to give legal advice? Most people going into law do need some idea of direction and being with people who have similar goals can be a bonus. Thats when uni choice comes in and LNAT course or not.

It’s also noticeable that when a lawyer speaks another language, their cv mentions it. London is cosmopolitan and a place where law is seen to be fair. People from many nationalities live here and firms have offices abroad. Lawyers have many strings to their bows and considering your strengths academically makes sense.

I think we have to calm down a bit when advising young people and realise that careers develop organically and sometimes unexpectedly. It’s too much to say that as a teenager or in their twenties they have to make decisions that will define their entire careers. Some of the best lawyers i know started as duty solicitors or with careers they never thought would lead to an international practice and yet that’s where they are. Others started high, prestigious sets or firms and have stagnated.

A language is undoubtedly useful. My young relative speaks French fluently which did them no harm in the Paris seat, but realistically English is the default language in most legal settings. If you look at international arbitration for example which is probably the fastest growing cross jurisdictional area of law, not having a language is not a barrier. They don’t expect English lawyers working in Qatar to know Arabic.