TSA or PAT

[7yeardraughtmustchangesoon]

Or maybe both?

DS is thinking about either Economics or Physics at Oxford. Loves the sciences but also humanities and probably looking at Econ or PPE or similar.

Anyhow, re the tests - PAT and TSA - which one is less 'trainable' (if that makes sense)? DS is quite good at logic, problem solving and doing tests he's not prepped for so thinking it might be best if we go for one of those rather than one that is more based on 'attainment/knowledge'.

Also, how soon can you do the first attempt? I know it's early as they are in Y11 but if really super far off the cut off score (or potential to get there with some practice), we thought we'd nip the Oxbridge dream in the bud early.

I don’t think you can do a ‘first attempt’? I may be wrong!
I thought you just did it in the October of Y13?
I guess if you reapply after you’ve left school you can take it again but it’s not like the tests for the US which you can just keep on taking.

I think its more important he applies for the course he wants to do rather than deciding on the basis of the test to take.

Sorry, at what age you could try a first attempt at doing a past paper as I guess some of it is pitched at a certain age/knowledge?

i think DD just bought a book in y12 for the TSA but I’m sure lots of others will be practicing from much earlier!

Or many don't practice beyond a couple of online papers shortly before the exam to know what to expect.

There is a good book called something like So You Think You Can Think. The TSA is designed not to give anyone an advantage based on practise & coaching.

Surely it's about what he wants to study for 3 years when he hits year 13, rather than which admissions test might he be best at on the off chance he's in the 10% who apply who get an offer from Oxford for a random subject.

The TSA isn't dependent on subject knowledge - it's a test of cognitive skills. It's quite a good idea IMO for potential TSA takers to take a good look at the question types a long time ahead and to think critically, in the light of those question types, about what they read.

Past papers are on the university websites, you can download and do them at your leisure, basically.

Doing well in the PAT requires pretty good maths skills (predicted A or A star at A Level, broadly; even better if doing well at Further Maths too). I’d guess it’s hard to achieve well on the PAT without that.

Oh, and I wouldn’t, at all, give up if you get a rotten score the first time. On the maths-based tests it’s totally normally for scores to improve the more you do (assuming you are fundamentally good enough at the maths). But the PAT does require some learned physics knowledge (formulae and some general physics knowledge, eg solar system). If you do plenty of past papers you’ll get a sense of which things you need to memorise in advance.

What A levels is he planning to do? Maths, FM, Physics, Economics?

DD just spent a couple of weeks at start of y13 for TSA for E&M. PPE has an additional TSA test. The other test to consider is TMUA if looking at Economics and that is based on some A level maths content. Admissions requirements and tests can also change from year to year. LSE Economics has gone from mainly personal statement to using TMUA which I think is fairer and better as it warns of the very high maths content.

@SheilaFentiman @PacificState @SilkiePenguin
That's reassuring re TSA, will leave that for a bit then.
They're thinking of Maths, FM, Econ and Physics (potentially)...so far always been strong in maths, including problem solving.

Would probably like Econ & Management but offer rate is so very low so may be tempted to do PPE instead. Was also in the past thinking about Physics. No contextual at all.

@SilkiePenguin Can't believe I'm asking this but son asking. Which course is seen as less difficult (less hours) out of E&M & PPE?? He's not lazy but was interested in knowing. ;)

DD studied PPE. In her first year she had to submit 2 essays (phil & pol) and 2 worksheets (econ & stats) each week. In her 2nd and 3rd year she had to take 2 modules each term with weekly essays for both.

I wouldn't consider the workload for either to be particularly light. That isn't why you go there.

Her degree results were based on 8 exams spread across 15 days at the end of her 3rd year covering everything she had taken in her 2nd & 3rd year. No coursework.

Not sure between E&M and PPE in terms of workload. I know DD shares economics tutorials (the sessions where they discuss essays) with PPE students. DD doesn't find the workload heavy for E&M - she will row for 5 hours or so every day, do her course in the day during term time then go out / for dinners in the evenings. I think last year she had 2 essays per week and 2 tutorials per week plus a few lectures. 8 week terms x 3 but they stay a bit longer than that. They do seem to have a lot of exams though its 100% finals - seem to have termly exams whereas when I did Economics at Cambridge we just had end of year exams with no mocks or termly exams but that may well have changed too. If you want to maximise the certainty of a First you need to do more work than DD but one person she rows with also rows every day but less partying and he got a First.

E&M is probably more maths and less reading than PPE. DD said the Economics maths was much easier than finance maths. Only 4 don't have Maths A level for PPE in DDs year. For E&M its required.

@SilkiePenguin @HewasH2O Thanks, that's helpful to know. Looking at the freedom of information data, I was a bit surprised that many high scoring TSA candidates (above 75, some even higher!) didn't get offers. Did they just bomb in their interview, do you think? It just seems to unlikely that so many would...

If they were not shortlisted with that TSA score its likely to be GCSE results (or low A level predictions but doubt that's many as schools tend to overpredict). If they got to interview stage with that TSA it'll be someone else scored better overall including interview. DD didn't find the interviews hard but you need to show you can learn together - if someone refused to consider any point of view other than their own they could be very bright but may not score highly.

With E&M the top 3 out of each 18 get interviews and I would imagine there isn't much in it.

@SilkiePenguin Thank you - very helpful. I've read the 'official' advice where they say they look at TSA first then, I think, GCSE followed by predicted and references. How much do you think GCSEs count for these types of courses? I'm asking as you seem so knowledgeable - how do you know all of this, do they tell you at open day (we've not been to any yet)?

I'll caveat this by saying that DD was the first from her school to get an Oxbridge offer in around 10 years.

Her GCSE results were 4 x 9s, 3 x 8s, 2 x 7s, 6 & a D. She took part in the Oxford UNIQ programme in year 12 & Cambridge HE+. Her PGs & actual results were higher than the PPE offer, but she didn't have straight A*s. Her TSA score put her in the top 10 - 12%.

The first thing her tutors told them on arrival in her college was to forget their exam histories as they had all been selected based on their potential & they were all capable of getting 1sts or 2:1s.

How does we know all of this? By ignoring a lot of the misinformation & myths spouted on MN by people whose cleaner's daughter stole a place from someone at SPGS by only having 4 GCSEs and CCC at A level (not true) or alternatively people who had predicted grades of 5A*s and 17 perfect grade 9 GCSEs who got offered a place because he had won 4 essay competitions (also not true)

Instead we learn from the long standing posters who have been there, done that on the ongoing Oxbridge threads.

We also read all of the widely available info on the official Oxbridge websites when our DC were applying. The universities want as many people as possible who meet the admissions criteria to apply & not be put off by hearsay, so they can make offers to people they think will do well in their weird & wonderful world.

Hope that helps. Oh & don't waste your money on tutors who claim they can prep your DS & guarantee him an interview & offer. They can't.

I think for E&M GCSEs are roughly 50% of the pre interview score with rest being TSA. A level predictions tend to always be above entry criteria so don't think they are used that much. My DD found a lot of the information by just searching the internet. There's a lot of Freedom of Information request as well as what's on Oxford's website and Oxford college websites can have more information. It says in this admissions report no set weightings.

https://www.seh.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/Economics-and-Management-2025.pdf

If you google Oxford Economics and Management admissions manual you get https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/em_admission_procedures/response/2771773/attach/html/2/Economics%20and%20Management%20Admissions%20Manual%2024%2025%20Redacted.pdf.html
Some of it is redacted but putting things together you can get lots of information. History and Economics is a very small course but they give their exact figures here: https://www.history.ox.ac.uk/admissions-facts-and-figures and pre interview its 66% GCSEs and 34% TSA. Then after 40% GCSEs, 20% TSA, 10% history written work, 15% history interview and 15% economics interview.

Basically just keep searching and there is an amazing amount of data out there. Its always worth checking each year - I think Oxford doesn't change things too often but things can change year on year. Your DS is still very young but it was good for DD to do this herself. She also went to the open day which was useful. She went with friends.

@SilkiePenguin Thank you. Will get them to have a look into it but bit early still I feel.

So, it seems that perhaps those really high scoring applicants on the TSA who did not get short-listed or offers may have also been those who didn't have a strong GCSE profile.

DC is still not sure of what to study at A-level. Strong on maths, stem and humanities, his head teachers said you don't need to study Econ to do Econ at uni (true), but then if you do e.g. Maths/FM + Stem and one more, you may end up not doing History, Econ or Politics which if you're applying for PPE must be a disadvantage (again, I know they say that only History - on top of maths - is helpful). Decisions, decisions...

It says here the most common A levels for PPE - 58% have Economics, 97% maths, 46% history, politics is also a popular choice. Economics is shared with E&M - on PPE after year 1 they can go down to 2 subjects - I think Economics is dropped often when they find the Maths difficult.

Maths is compulsory for E&M and I think about 50-60% have FM as well. Probably from private the majority will have FM for E&M. DD just has A level Maths and finds the Maths fine in Economics but says its challenging in finance though not sure if FM would have made that better or not. That's something she could drop at end of year 1 and you only need to pass year 1, its 100% finals. If you fail an exam in y1 twice you are out but that's quite unusual - if special circumstances you can have a third attempt but have to have a year away from Oxford. Then next exams that count are finals.

I don't know how many on E&M have Economics A level but suspect it would be very high like 90% - when I did Economics at Cambridge almost everyone had it and its still the same today (90%ish) so although its possible not to have it I would not recommend that. DD didn't have it but she had self taught GCSE Economics and grown up with me working as an Economist. It didn't cause issues in the interview though having Economics A level also shows interest and gives you chance to see if you like the subject. Though I disliked the A level and loved the degree as it was much wider and there was a lot of studying countries, politics and history and development. For PPE I think they recommend Maths and a essay based subject which can be History but also could be a subject like Politics. Economics is probably borderline on being classed as an essay based subject, its more technical but has some writing. I would just go for what interests him most and hope he gets a place - I think he will.

https://www.ppe.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/ppe-admissions-2024-25-further-statistics-final-0.pdf
https://www.ppe.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/ppe-handbook-fhs-2025-27-v01.pdf