STEM A Levels

[RememberDecember]

DS trying to decide on A level selection, at this point I think it is about keeping future options open eg medicine, engineering. He definitely wants to do Maths, FM, Chemistry then trying to decide between Physics and Biology. Prob leaning towards Physics.

Any thoughts on what he would be narrowing down degree wise if he dropped either of these? I think you need Chemistry for Medicine but not necessarily Biology, although they prefer? And opposite with Physics for engineering?!

Other considerations are EPQ and AS language but I think 4 A Levels sounds a lot already! School are keen for them to do EPQ alongside 4 A Levels, but I think he will find this hard as written subjects not his strength.

DP and I did humanities so no clue on these subjects! Thank you.

Physics would definitely help with Engineering however would not do an EPQ as 4A levels is enough workload.

Medicine seems to need good BMAT? scores so I think that's the most important focus.

For a kid who is strong on maths, then maths+FM is not too much work. So an EPQ could be fine, and he can pick a topic related to science.

the medicine/ engineering split is a bigger choice. While you may be able to do medicine without biology, it will be harder. Does your DS have an interest in medicine because he actually wants to be a medic talking to ill people or just because it seems like a hardcore sciency subject? If the latter, he could also look at biochemistry or neuroscience which have much more science and which often need math-computing skills.

There is overlap of content between Maths, FM and Physics which can be mutually supporting (obvs so long as comfortably stepping up at A level). That might count in Physics favour over Biology.

Four A levels and an AS and an EPQ sounds a lot, particularly if the latter two fall in Y12 and/or if Maths A level sat at end of Y12, prior to exclusive focus on FM in Y13. Worth exploring if, at your DC's school, those doing 4 STEM and AS comfortably coped without diluting grades.

It would also be sensible for DC to explore what engineering and medicine career pathways actually entail ie lift focus beyond perceived prestige and assumed economic return. That might help in choice selection.

I wouldn't do an AS language with 4 A-levels as they are more than enough. If he doesn't know what he wants to do then I would think an EPQ might be less useful as it might not be relevant in the end to what he decides to do. DS really enjoyed his though and it was useful for CV/interviews for degree apprenticeships if he's interested in that route at all. It also helped him with research writing which he'd never done anything like before - and is very different from GCSE English! Good prep for uni IMO.

I would be getting him to really do some research on the different careers he might be interested in, what exactly they involve and thinking about what direction he wants to go down. Engineering is a huge field so lots to consider there and the same with medicine. If he can get more of a focus on where he wants to get it should help him choose. I know it's difficult when they're still so young though!

Med schools vary. Chemistry is generally a requirement fewer need biology.

engineering will want physics.

if he wants to keep options open he could start maths fm chem and physics and plan to drop one if it is too much.

epq fairly pointless for med schools - they have (hard!) entrance tests. Language also not important for either

an A in EPQ may give a student a lower offer than the standard - that's one benefit of taking one

I wouldn't take 4 A levels, universities only require 3

different medical schools require different A levels - you'd need to look at different medical school entrance requirements for this

If he's seriously interested in medicine he'll need to get some volunteering/work experience under his belt to show commitment, in some kind of people facing context.

My DS had the same dilemma and took biology instead of physics as he wanted to do medicine. Then changed his mind later and is now studying chemical engineering at Bath.

Whilst unis do not 'require' 4 A levels, academically competitive courses in Maths, Physics, CS, Econ and Engineering are more likely to offer where FM is taken (usually as one of four; though can be taken as one of three, noting that may compromise med entry).

Furthermore they are potentially less likely to offer if FM was available at the applicant's school or college but not taken; details are available under degree subject on relevant unis' websites. The focus on FM is because heavily mathematical courses will assume FM knowledge and performance at the outset.

Obviously there are excellent engineering degrees available where FM is not strongly encouraged but it is important not to present an overly simplified picture; there are trade-offs.

@PerpetualOptimist
Fair - I was thinking as a medical graduate mum, forgetting that FM is really quite necessary for courses like engineering

@ramonaquimby It is tricky and not always very clear, mainly because unis cannot insist on FM as all schools or colleges do not offer it. Your comments re: med school make a lot of sense and highlight there is a balancing act to consider.

I would say that Physics is more necessary for Engineering than Biology is for medicine.

What type of engineering??
I'd have thought maths, FM, Chem and bio could still leave open Chem eng and some form of bio engineering? But definitely do some digging before taking that as gospel!

FWIW, my oldest has just started phys, Chem maths and FM. It's tough going. I wouldn't be recommending adding extras ontop - although he does loads of scouting, and is doing DoE gold, so quite a lot outside school which might make the workload seem more endless than it actually is.

DS2 did Maths, Chemistry, Biology. It was tough going and he got 9’s at GCSE. There’s a lot of content with the Biology, he found it hardest due to very specific wording required in answers.
Stick with what he will do best in. Don’t bother with AS language or EPQ, concentrate on getting relevant work experience/ a part time job!

BMAT doesn't exist any more, but yes, there is an assessment (UCAT).

The Medical Schools Council publishes details of the entry requirements for all the medical schools
https://www.medschools.ac.uk/for-students/applying-to-medical-school/entry-requirements/

This narrow focus of A Levels at a relatively early age really frustrates me with the UK education system for just this reason, how is anyone supposed to know where they might want focus at this age! Realistically, whilst he likes languages, he knows that doesn’t really fit with the others so will have to go - also frustrating really!

I get the impression that school makes everyone start the EPQ, 4 AL or not.

DS happy about doing FM and seems well suited to it, plus school are good for it so I think the real toss up is between Physics and Biology.

thank you, I think this is probably where we are leaning, plus more aligned with his interests / aptitude.

Would chemistry, maths, physics and biology be an option?

I think it would be better than FM.

I did Medicine not having done A level Biology and it made it so much harder, so I wouldn't recommend applying for Medicine without.

I think your DS should spend some time over the next few months thinking about what he really wants to do. You need to be desperate to do Medicine to do it IYSWIM. The application process is arduous with having to do the UCAT exam. The course is arduous and so is the job. I wouldn't recommend applying just because he likes science. My gut feeling would be if he can't decide now then Medicine probably isn't for him.

It would be useful for him to talk to a medical student or junior doctor to get an idea of the reality. Maybe try and get some work experience at a local hospital - many run schemes for potential students.

There is a lot of information online which is helpful, for example
www.medschools.ac.uk

I would also ask for advice at school now. You sit UCAT very early in Y13 and applications need to be in by 15 October so you need to be planning from Y11.

Good luck.

I also did Medicine without doing A level Biology and I agree it makes it more difficult. I felt as if I was trailing the other students in my group, probably for the first year, year and a half. He may need to think about which degree he most wants to do and tailor his A level subjects to that. Difficult, I know. I don't envy him making that choice at that age.

Medicine - four subjects not useful. Biology AND chemistry recommended. Maths could be helpful, but FM is not needed. An EPQ could be useful to show research skills, but not essential. Also some med schools to reduced offers for 3 a-levels + EPQ , but for four A-levels the majority don't. And as others have said, Medicine requires UCAT prep, interview prep, and work experience as well.

Engineering - Maths and Physics recommended. FM could be useful here but not needed. Four subjects could be useful for more competitive courses. EPQ helpful but again not essential.

If you want to keep it flexible, I think Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Maths is the best combination, although it is not an easy workload as sciences are content-heavy. He could take part in science olympiads and maths challenges, rather than do an EPQ. This will help him secure high A-level grades in those subjects and fill some of the "supercurriculars" paragraphs on his personal statement. Consider doing some volunteering (care home, hospital, etc), and try to find a work experience placement at the local hospital - this will help your DS decide whether Medicine is for him and it will also enhance his personal statement.

PS. I would not take any of these subjects at A-level (sciences and Maths) unless 8-9 was achieved at GCSE level for those subjects. They are all quite tough subjects to take at A-level. If your DS sat Add Maths in year 11, that will help a lot with A-level Maths, as there is some curriculum overlap.
PPS. Many medical schools (not all) include GCSEs in their ranking of students. Best 6-8 GCSE grades are usually scored when selecting students for interview. These are the most important GCSE grades included in the best 8 mix: English Language, Maths, Bio, Chem, Physics.

Take Math, Chem, Bio, Physics, as it opens your door to Medicine and Engineering. You can drop Further Maths because Medicine degree (eg. Uni of Edin one) will only consider one of Mathematics or Further Mathematics. See visual here

But that’s just one med school and the lad isn’t even committed to doing medicine yet.
whereas for quite a lot of the top engineering degrees FM is highly desirable, and students who haven’t done it are at a disadvantage on their courses. This is assuming he’s aiming high of course.

There is not only one med school that considers only one of Maths and FM; there are quite a few of them. FM is NOT required for engineering courses; it is only recommended for some. E.g., even Oxford engineering asks for Maths and FM or Physics.

If flexibility is important at this stage, then Bio + Chem + Physics + Maths would allow OP's son to competitively apply to any engineering or medicine course in the UK, provided they get great predicted/achieved grades.