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Too early for a Medicine 2027 thread?

424 replies

SuperSue77 · 31/08/2025 19:25

Just wondered if there was any interest in a medicine 2027 thread for those of us with YP going into year 12 who plan to apply for medicine? I've seen one or two lurking previously and will try to tag if I can find their user names. Just conscious that I am always posting on the 2026 thread, yet DD is a year behind them and so my comments aren't so relevant.

Please come and join me here if you are interested.

OP posts:
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19
Marchesman · 30/08/2026 18:18

transient · 29/08/2026 20:01

Of course, you're not a statistic. People can thrive anywhere. Selection must be strategic: focus first on your chances of getting in, then on open day visits and other available information. Specialty exam pass rates from the GMC are often overlooked because people tend to focus more on QS rankings, The Guardian, The Times, other guidebooks... or simply plain snobbery.

However, the stats don't like. A 61% average pass rate over five years (Exeter) means nearly 40% of students fail their specialty exams. Both teaching quality and curriculum clearly have room for improvement. With stats this consistent over time, it isn't just a matter of school age.

This wasn't meant to be a debate... it's just statistics. Do your own research, people.

Thank you for the analysis that you provided; it should be required reading for anyone looking at these threads. I don't know who put it together, but it helpfully uses GMC data that is not very accessible - https://edt.gmc-uk.org/progression-reports/specialty-examinations (the GMC does not advertise outcome differences for medical schools).

It is a perfectly acceptable criticism that these figures don't take into account prior attainment; but McManus (2020) does, and finds that "even when entry grades and other measures are taken into account, PBL schools (and post-2000 schools) tend to do less well at examinations"; just as they do in your table.

Postgraduate examinations test specialist knowledge that builds on knowledge acquired (or not) as an undergraduate, and anyone who can't pass them will join the 80% of people who drop out of medicine. You can't suck the faculty-taught basic sciences that underpin medicine out of medical school curricula without consequences (that are, as you point out, not captured by league tables).

I take heart from the fact that a good number of medical schools have resisted considerable pressure from the GMC, and students and therefore league tables to go down the "PBL" route, and it will largely be their graduates delivering specialist hospital (as opposed to GP) treatment in the future.

Specialty examinations - Education Data Tool

Pass rates for royal college exams for doctors in postgraduate training, based on which medical school they attended

https://edt.gmc-uk.org/progression-reports/specialty-examinations

hiyabean · 30/08/2026 18:29

SuperSue77 · 30/08/2026 15:50

Congrats to @hiyabean and @Zokaluse73’s YP with sitting their UCATs and their amazing scores!

Sorry I’ve been a bit quiet recently, DD did her UCAT on the 14th and didn’t do as well as she’d hoped. Maybe she should have delayed it but we left for a 2 week holiday 2 days later and when we’re back it’s pretty well straight back to school and personal statement, UCAS application, year 13 content and interview prep, so we thought it was better not to delay it.

It has impacted where she can apply - we think Exeter and UEA are off the table, it will depend on where the deciles land but given she was bang on last year’s average and they usually go up, I suspect she’s a bit too low now.

Fortunately she has put it behind her and been enjoying her holiday, but it’s never far from my mind and have been looking into the logistics of a trip up to Sunderland for their open day at the end of September.

Luckily Keele is still a possibility, which was always her favourite, but she will need to score top marks on her personal statement. And she only needs one! It would be good to get some other interviews though so that the Keele one won’t be her first, but it’s a bit of a toss up between choosing strategically to aim for interviews, albeit at med schools she doesn’t want to go to, versus choosing one or two risky ones she would love to go to.

I hope everyone else who has sat their UCAT now for the scores they were hoping for.

Sunderland is an amazing med course! Definitely have a look at it, it’s our closest university and my DS was so impressed when he went to look round. Said he would be really happy to go there and that the staff were great! He actually bumped into a couple of the lecturers/admissions tutors at a gig. They had come to see his band and he got talking to them afterwards. They said they don’t care about ucat or academics or even medical shadowing what they want to see is customer facing work. Told him to get a job in a busy restaurant or macdonalds! For Sunderland they are looking for people with good communication skills as they think that’s what makes an excellent doctor. I’m inclined to agree with them. It’s a lovely city with a thriving music scene and right next to the sea.

hiyabean · 30/08/2026 19:39

Marchesman · 30/08/2026 18:18

Thank you for the analysis that you provided; it should be required reading for anyone looking at these threads. I don't know who put it together, but it helpfully uses GMC data that is not very accessible - https://edt.gmc-uk.org/progression-reports/specialty-examinations (the GMC does not advertise outcome differences for medical schools).

It is a perfectly acceptable criticism that these figures don't take into account prior attainment; but McManus (2020) does, and finds that "even when entry grades and other measures are taken into account, PBL schools (and post-2000 schools) tend to do less well at examinations"; just as they do in your table.

Postgraduate examinations test specialist knowledge that builds on knowledge acquired (or not) as an undergraduate, and anyone who can't pass them will join the 80% of people who drop out of medicine. You can't suck the faculty-taught basic sciences that underpin medicine out of medical school curricula without consequences (that are, as you point out, not captured by league tables).

I take heart from the fact that a good number of medical schools have resisted considerable pressure from the GMC, and students and therefore league tables to go down the "PBL" route, and it will largely be their graduates delivering specialist hospital (as opposed to GP) treatment in the future.

I’m a bit confused by this. As far as I’ve been able to establish, only Oxford and Cambridge still have the really traditional model of two years heavily focused on pre-clinical science. Every other medical school I’ve looked at now uses some form of integrated/case-based teaching organised around body systems, albeit presumably with quite a lot of variation in how much basic science is formally taught.
So where does that leave the argument about PBL versus traditional teaching in relation to current medical schools? Are Oxford and Cambridge genuinely outliers here, or are there other schools you would regard as sufficiently science-heavy to fall into the “traditional” group?

I also keep coming back to the selection-effect question. If you took one of the extraordinary candidates who gets an Oxbridge offer, extremely high prior attainment (that potentially doesn’t actually match the published attainment as often goes way beyond it) and, perhaps more importantly, the sort of person who independently reads and researches their subject because they are fascinated by it and put them into a different medical school, how much less successful would we actually expect them to be as a doctor?

And I’m not sure postgraduate exam performance alone necessarily answers that question. Being an excellent doctor also involves being able to connect with other humans, read between the lines when taking a history, make a patient feel heard and understood, make good decisions and apply all the knowledge picked up over several years to an actual person.

I’m genuinely interested rather than trying to defend one model. I have a child applying to Cambridge medicine but looking seriously at several other medical schools too. He certainly wouldn’t choose Cambridge (if he was offered) simply because it’s Cambridge. For us, it would need to demonstrate a meaningful educational advantage (beyond getting dressed up in robes and eating dinner with important people) to justify potentially costing around £70k more than studying at our local medical school and living at home.
Currently I’m pretty unconvinced that it’s that much better. How much of the difference is simply that it selects boss-level boffins in the first place?

If we teleported one of those boffins out of Cambridge and plonked them into any other medical school, is that it? Are they doomed because they’re no longer in the inner sanctum of academic rigour?
That’s really what I’m trying to work out: how much of the impressive Cambridge outcome data represents what Cambridge actually does to its students, and how much reflects the rather extraordinary group of students it selects in the first place?

mumsneedwine · 30/08/2026 21:10

Some people only believe it's worth going to school one of 5 Unis. Otherwise you'll be a useless doctor. I'm afraid snob factor is a real thing for a select few. Most people just want to become a doctor.

mumsneedwine · 30/08/2026 21:13

80% of people drop out of medicine ? What a bizarre stat. Totally untrue and a ridiculous thing to say. And v v few Unis do PBL these days ?

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 09:51

@SuperSue77Sunderland is a great course, very patient focussed and they really rate customer facing experience as already stated. They look for an all rounder (& they also do teach all the science needed 😂). Nice placement hospitals with not too many students so can get hands on (some London ones have a problem with too many students).

DD was not amused that the Krebs cycle that she's been learning about since A levels pops up again in both the MSRA and RG exams. She's never needed it once in practice. But knowledge is there if she ever does.

I always suggest (& please ignore if you think I'm stupid) to choose 2 as safe as you can Unis, one aspirational but close and one that you absolutely love and would kick yourself if you didn't try. Why ? Because strange things happen every year - a few years ago UCATs at a few Unis shot down as less people applied. I can see this happening at Bristol one year in the not too distant future, as so many put off now due to the bonkers UCAT cut offs. Imperial and UCL may also have a blip one year for the same reason.

The mantra for the next year is you only need one offer. Good luck !

transient · 31/08/2026 10:44

@mumsneedwine this is great advice for Medicine, given how competitive it is and how hard the UCAT and the interviews are "choose 2 as safe as you can Unis, one aspirational but close and one that you absolutely love and would kick yourself if you didn't try".

My DD missed out on her aspirational choice by a hair, her UCAT score was just below their threshold, so she didn't get an interview. However, she got into the one that she "absolutely loves and would kick herself if she didn't try", as you put it. Her two "safe" choices weren't both safe: one waitlisted her after the interview and the other one made an offer. In the end, we were extremely grateful that she had three interviews and two medicine offers. Her stats were strong, including a top 10% UCAT, all A star predictions, and great GCSEs. She went to a comprehensive state school and is the only one in her cohort with any medicine offers, even though the four other students who applied had similar academic profiles.

If I were to add to your advice above, it would be: don't underestimate the UCAT or the difficulty of the interviews. Do as many timed UCAT mocks as possible on medify/medentry, and find ways to practice interview questions with friends, family, and free mocks (and paid mocks, if affordable...).

Best of luck to the 2027 cohort!

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 11:10

UCAT was invented by a very twisted mind - I detest it ! But it carries so much weight these days it must be taken seriously.

And yes, interviews are also tricky. I'd add to that advice - talk to strangers as much as you can (safely). When shopping make small talk with the cashier, at work engage with co workers of different ages, chat to your parents friends. At 17 they have little experience of just chatting (& unfortunately phones have made this worse) and it's a skill they will need. Also, remember to listen !

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 11:11

And there is no 'safe' choice unfortunately. Just safer.

MedicalStudent2024 · 31/08/2026 13:14

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 11:10

UCAT was invented by a very twisted mind - I detest it ! But it carries so much weight these days it must be taken seriously.

And yes, interviews are also tricky. I'd add to that advice - talk to strangers as much as you can (safely). When shopping make small talk with the cashier, at work engage with co workers of different ages, chat to your parents friends. At 17 they have little experience of just chatting (& unfortunately phones have made this worse) and it's a skill they will need. Also, remember to listen !

haha twisted mind. Now i wanna know who came up with it. I agree it is terrible and the worst exam I have probably taken so far but it does have its benefits and reasons why it could be seen as a 'good' test from their perspective.

And yeah there is a safe choice for some depending on stats but of course for some people nowhere will be fully safe so have to apply strategically to give best chance.

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 13:34

MedicalStudent2024 · 31/08/2026 13:14

haha twisted mind. Now i wanna know who came up with it. I agree it is terrible and the worst exam I have probably taken so far but it does have its benefits and reasons why it could be seen as a 'good' test from their perspective.

And yeah there is a safe choice for some depending on stats but of course for some people nowhere will be fully safe so have to apply strategically to give best chance.

Never 100% safe as we never know how things will go. But strategic applying improves those odds 😊.

UCAT tests the skills required to be a doctor, quick thinking, decision making, fast comprehension, empathy etc. They took out abstract as was to trainable and wasn't really adding anything. But it's such a tough test and those 2.5hrs sat in a grubby Pearson centre can determine your next 12 months. No idea what would be better (I quite liked bmat but was so badly run).

UCAT was started in 2006 by Ed, Notts, Bham, Kings and Manc and originally used by 24 Unis as they needed some way of choosing between so many students with top grades.

For this year. Strategy. Prepare for interviews. And a bit of luck.

Marchesman · 31/08/2026 17:46

hiyabean · 30/08/2026 19:39

I’m a bit confused by this. As far as I’ve been able to establish, only Oxford and Cambridge still have the really traditional model of two years heavily focused on pre-clinical science. Every other medical school I’ve looked at now uses some form of integrated/case-based teaching organised around body systems, albeit presumably with quite a lot of variation in how much basic science is formally taught.
So where does that leave the argument about PBL versus traditional teaching in relation to current medical schools? Are Oxford and Cambridge genuinely outliers here, or are there other schools you would regard as sufficiently science-heavy to fall into the “traditional” group?

I also keep coming back to the selection-effect question. If you took one of the extraordinary candidates who gets an Oxbridge offer, extremely high prior attainment (that potentially doesn’t actually match the published attainment as often goes way beyond it) and, perhaps more importantly, the sort of person who independently reads and researches their subject because they are fascinated by it and put them into a different medical school, how much less successful would we actually expect them to be as a doctor?

And I’m not sure postgraduate exam performance alone necessarily answers that question. Being an excellent doctor also involves being able to connect with other humans, read between the lines when taking a history, make a patient feel heard and understood, make good decisions and apply all the knowledge picked up over several years to an actual person.

I’m genuinely interested rather than trying to defend one model. I have a child applying to Cambridge medicine but looking seriously at several other medical schools too. He certainly wouldn’t choose Cambridge (if he was offered) simply because it’s Cambridge. For us, it would need to demonstrate a meaningful educational advantage (beyond getting dressed up in robes and eating dinner with important people) to justify potentially costing around £70k more than studying at our local medical school and living at home.
Currently I’m pretty unconvinced that it’s that much better. How much of the difference is simply that it selects boss-level boffins in the first place?

If we teleported one of those boffins out of Cambridge and plonked them into any other medical school, is that it? Are they doomed because they’re no longer in the inner sanctum of academic rigour?
That’s really what I’m trying to work out: how much of the impressive Cambridge outcome data represents what Cambridge actually does to its students, and how much reflects the rather extraordinary group of students it selects in the first place?

I'm not surprised that you are confused, the territory seems to be designed with that in mind. For a start, as I think I said to you earlier, practice based learning has been around forever but it was always preceded by 2 or 3 years of highly intensive instruction in the medical sciences. It may be worth examining why this is no longer the case. Many (most?) educationalists are unhinged, most conspicuously at the top of the "profession" where there is a belief that we have gone too far down the route of literacy and numeracy. By this reckoning, formal high stakes examinations are a mistake because conventional academic attainment signals wealth and not potential, leading to lack of diversity and an unjust degree of societal inequality.

Medicine has been ahead of this curve. It is a pretty universal belief now that doctors should resemble their patients (although how this is achieved in practice, in the context of a post-take ward round or theatre list is never discussed). The UCAT was originally designed to differentiate between straight A applicants, but with diversity and equality in mind, the idea that it might replace academic attainment was too irresistible. Medicine has also done pioneering work in moving away from the didactic lecture format towards "self-directed learning" (GMC Tomorrow's Doctors, 1993), which some educationalists now see as the way forward for secondary schools (along with e-portfolios!). (Traditionally, self-directed learning is what medical students do in the evening after spending all day having had their heads stuffed with facts by specialists in their fields.)

All of this has gone down very well with medical students, who find learning the basic sciences difficult. It's good for student satisfaction scores, it's good for self-confidence (look at how often confidence is promoted as a selling point by PBL schools). Having spent four or five years dressing up as doctors and talking to patients they are sufficiently positive about their abilities to refer to themselves expert clinicians. But it's very bad for every metric of performance.

If you are a high achiever do you need to avoid it, and if so, how? Yes you do, because the curriculum, whatever it consists of, is certainly not going to be delivered at the pace of the most able. Secondly, PBL schools are set up to produce GPs (and do that badly), but medicine is a broad church and most medical specialities - although admittedly not most specialists - have minimal or no patient contact and require instead a particularly solid grounding in science, and these specialities tend to attract academic high achievers.

As to the how, there is a grey area occupied by Russell Group universities that have reduced their didactic science content in favour of early patient contact, but in most cases it is pretty obvious. Take Sunderland for example, since that has been mentioned on this thread. Look at the faculty and you find anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, microbiology, and pharmacology taught by a total of a dozen people, who, with a few exceptions, have minute peer-reviewed research profiles in unrelated fields, or none. One of them refers to the "excretion of food", for heaven's sake. The best that can be said is that at least every basic science has a figurehead, which is not always the case in PBL medical schools.

In your position, I would read the papers that I previously cited, look at the GMC's more up to date data on postgraduate outcomes that unusually names specific medical schools, particularly shortlist courses that include a research-based year, and delve into the faculties of recently created medical schools - if you must. For an overview of the workforce there are the GMC's annual reviews, 2024 is particularly useful. Medicine is a long haul, and the training is too short, there is absolutely no benefit to the student from rushing headlong into contact with patients.

Backtoschooloncemore · 31/08/2026 17:55

Applying to Medicine is a different kettle of fish to other subjects. You can be a very strong candidate generally and still only get one offer, but then again you can only go one place!

Remember you don’t need to fill in your fifth, non-medical, choice at the same time as you submit your medicine applications. You can add this in later. I also know a few medics who were rejected from this subject too which in someways is fair if it is competitive as, unlike other applicants for that subject, most medics don’t want to do it anyway! (And have a clearly medicine-specific PS to prove it).

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 20:14

Just rude. And patronising. ALL medical students in this country have excellent science A levels so have no issues learning 'basic' science.

And this person is apparently involved in the education of medical students and a consultant.

Too early for a Medicine 2027 thread?
mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 20:15

And, again, the only real PBL still around is Manchester.

And doctors from all medical schools get into all specialities. What is a 'top' speciality ? I'm going to take a guess and they think surgeon 😂

mumsneedwine · 31/08/2026 20:21

But at least now have UKGrad priority which means all our trained doctors will have a job. And their exam fees paid in future. Lots of work went into this and it's made such a difference to our current foundation/CF doctors.

Zokaluse73 · 02/09/2026 13:52

hiyabean · 20/08/2026 17:35

sorry, what I meant was, do they change how the weighting is done? So if a med school has a ucat requirement for interview and then states it uses ucat and GCSEs post interview as 50% of the scoring, is that likely to change between years at short notice? (Working out what extra open days to go to!)

It's always best to check the schools your YP is interested in to check the current requirements.

Zokaluse73 · 02/09/2026 14:18

SuperSue77 · 30/08/2026 15:50

Congrats to @hiyabean and @Zokaluse73’s YP with sitting their UCATs and their amazing scores!

Sorry I’ve been a bit quiet recently, DD did her UCAT on the 14th and didn’t do as well as she’d hoped. Maybe she should have delayed it but we left for a 2 week holiday 2 days later and when we’re back it’s pretty well straight back to school and personal statement, UCAS application, year 13 content and interview prep, so we thought it was better not to delay it.

It has impacted where she can apply - we think Exeter and UEA are off the table, it will depend on where the deciles land but given she was bang on last year’s average and they usually go up, I suspect she’s a bit too low now.

Fortunately she has put it behind her and been enjoying her holiday, but it’s never far from my mind and have been looking into the logistics of a trip up to Sunderland for their open day at the end of September.

Luckily Keele is still a possibility, which was always her favourite, but she will need to score top marks on her personal statement. And she only needs one! It would be good to get some other interviews though so that the Keele one won’t be her first, but it’s a bit of a toss up between choosing strategically to aim for interviews, albeit at med schools she doesn’t want to go to, versus choosing one or two risky ones she would love to go to.

I hope everyone else who has sat their UCAT now for the scores they were hoping for.

Thank you for your kind words.

I'm sorry your DD did not get a score she was hoping for though it's great she is still on track for her favourite.

Did she look at many Uni's? We had 14 on our paper list and got it down to 9 by researching everything about the areas and the uni along with their requirements (1 still to go of Sheffield this weekend, as their summer open day clashed with another). She now has 5 left if she likes Sheffield and 4 if not after viewing all 9 so far.
If your DD hasn't seen many, then perhaps look at ones she matches and go take a late look, even if its just the area to get a feel for it as that's one of my DD's priority's considering she will be there for 6 years (plans to intercalate).

We wish her luck going forward

Backtoschooloncemore · 02/09/2026 14:52

So different for most Scottish med applicants who just have to decide which one not to apply to rather than short list those they want!

SuperSue77 · 03/09/2026 09:30

Zokaluse73 · 02/09/2026 14:18

Thank you for your kind words.

I'm sorry your DD did not get a score she was hoping for though it's great she is still on track for her favourite.

Did she look at many Uni's? We had 14 on our paper list and got it down to 9 by researching everything about the areas and the uni along with their requirements (1 still to go of Sheffield this weekend, as their summer open day clashed with another). She now has 5 left if she likes Sheffield and 4 if not after viewing all 9 so far.
If your DD hasn't seen many, then perhaps look at ones she matches and go take a late look, even if its just the area to get a feel for it as that's one of my DD's priority's considering she will be there for 6 years (plans to intercalate).

We wish her luck going forward

Thanks! We did look at quite a few, Exeter, Southampton, UEA, BSMS, Nottingham, Keele and Leicester. Now booked to see Sunderland on 26 Sept and possibly Lincoln on 11 Oct. I think Keele and Sunderland will definitely be on the list - it’s the other 2 we are not sure about.

We tried these online ‘matchers’ where you put in their stats and they recommend unis. One came up with Keele and HYMS as being definites - which is odd as HYMS I believe you need around 70+ and I think she scores around 53! Another firm said Keele, Sunderland, KMMS and Lincoln, and advised against UEA and Exeter (the 2 that were originally on her preferred list of 3, along with Keele).

Then another 2 online systems both said Leicester was a firm bet, and UEA! They also suggested QUB. Brunel and Bangor have both been mentioned but she’s not keen on those as they’d not be a good fit for her. I know medicine is medicine but she would prefer the gap year strategy to applying to those.

My thoughts were Keele and Sunderland and then UEA as aspirational and Exeter as the one you would kick yourself for not applying to - but I really liked Leicester and trying to get her to see it in the same light as me!

It will be interesting to see how the deciles lie - must admit I’m hoping there has been a drop this year, but I suspect it will be up again.

DD back to school today and not looking forward to telling her peers and teachers her score. Another girl in her class (not someone I know) was also disappointed with her score - I think it was a respectable one (she hasn’t actually said what it is) but she was aiming for Imperial, so disappointed to be out of the running for that. It’s mean, but I was glad DD is not the only one whose plans have changed, though this other girl will still have lots of options available to her.

It’s hard though, everyone says ‘apply strategically’ but you can’t be sure how many will apply to which unis in any one year and when you are in the bottom half of scores pretty much everywhere is risky. DD wants to be a doctor and isn’t chasing the ‘prestigious’ unis, just one where the students she met seemed like her, and where the staff seemed supportive. I suppose time will tell!

OP posts:
MyGreyBiscuit · 04/09/2026 14:43

Hello! I recognise a few names here. Just popping by - reading your posts brings back 'bad memories' of how my life was this time last year, 😅 so lots and lots of tea and hugs as you get through UCAT and the final choices for the UCAS form.

DS is off to Barts/Queen Mary next weekend to start first year med. If there's anything you want to ask from a 'newish' candidate (or mother!!), please do.

SevilleOranges · 05/09/2026 12:32

Hello everyone! Joining here as feeling somewhat overwhelmed with this process. DD did UCAT earlier this week and scored 2110, SJT Band 1. Need to think more about the 4 choices now. We have been to open days at Newcastle, HYMS, Sheffield and Liverpool but after some reading I don’t think Newcastle or Sheffield are realistic options now, @mumsneedwine please can I get a copy of your spreadsheet. Thank you @SuperSue77 for starting this very useful thread.

mumsneedwine · 05/09/2026 12:46

Pop me an email by DM and I'll send right over. But Sheffield cut off was 2070 this year so you are above it. Newcastle use a points system as below so will depend on GCSEs and cut if was about 80 this year . But it's a good UCAT !

Too early for a Medicine 2027 thread?
MedicalStudent2024 · 05/09/2026 12:51

SevilleOranges · 05/09/2026 12:32

Hello everyone! Joining here as feeling somewhat overwhelmed with this process. DD did UCAT earlier this week and scored 2110, SJT Band 1. Need to think more about the 4 choices now. We have been to open days at Newcastle, HYMS, Sheffield and Liverpool but after some reading I don’t think Newcastle or Sheffield are realistic options now, @mumsneedwine please can I get a copy of your spreadsheet. Thank you @SuperSue77 for starting this very useful thread.

Edited

Last year a score of 2100 or above meant in the top 20% so this is not really a bad score and the band 1 helps, in fact Sheffield used to give extra points for the band 1 as part of the interview scoring, I don't know if it is still the same.

SevilleOranges · 05/09/2026 13:19

Thank you for your replies. I am new to using mumsnet! @mumsneedwine do I need to send you it in a particular way, I remember reading something about this before?