Just how hard are Maths and Science A levels?

[Flarerave]

Interested on views in light of recent results. Keep hearing how much harder maths and science a levels are than other subjects. Have a Y11 who will be selecting courses next year... an all rounder scoring 7-9 across board. Seems for best chance of RG degree you need to be aiming for 3A predictions. Wondering if this is more achievable with non STEM subjects?

Surely it depends on your own skills?
Back in the 80s I found maths and FM a walk in the park, but would have been hopeless at eg History.
Your DC should do the subjects they enjoy / find interesting as that will lead to a degree they find interesting. (With an eye on employability too of course).

I think it's very subjective. DD did both Maths and History A levels, wouldn't say she found either particularly harder than the other and got the same grade in both, but would have found - for example - Physics or a language much more difficult. At her school a higher proportion get top grades in Maths than History. Not sure how typical that is.

This exactly.

Maths and FM were so easy I did almost nothing outside lessons.
Physics, I did a little bit of revision. As in I think I had a couple of pages of things that were just facts I needed to know.
I did very little work through A-levels. It was a lovely lazy time.

I would have expected to get 100% in single maths, and certainly further pure - might have dropped to 90% in the mechanics, although oddly I nearly got 100% on one mechanics paper at degree level. It was just so obvious the only reason I knew it wasn't was that other people told me it was too hard for them.

I could not have done any other subject and got As.

My colleague got As on 2 languages and English Lit (no A*s back in our day) having started one from scratch at A-level. She didn't find them hard, but she said O-level maths she struggled to pass.

My friend's brother was a genius in Art. He failed his A-levels the first time round because he tried to do science. He then got 4xAs in art related subjects.

My cousin did music and maths and got top As in both. But he only got a C/D in GCSE English Language/Literature.

It depends on your skill set.

Yeh it’s what you are good at and interested in surely.

DS2 is pretty able, but would have found A level Eng lit much more of a challenge than the biology he took.

Seems for best chance of RG degree you need to be aiming for 3A predictions I mean this is true to some extent I guess, but it massively depends on the degree and which RG. If you mean Oxford for anything or LSE for economics yes, add stars too maybe.

If you mean Liverpool or Newcastle for Eng lit or history then ABB will probably do. That was DD's offer for Eng lit at Birmingham, actually.

I think the best advice is to consider future careers you might be interested in (for example, if you want to be an engineer, you will need physics and maths A levels ideally) and make sure your A level choices don't rule them out.

If the future career question is answered with "hmm not sure" then the best thing is to choose subjects you enjoy as that is how you will get the best grades – which is important. If a student really doesn't know, then choosing one or two core subjects is a good idea as it leaves more options open. So for an undecided student, I would advocate for (for example) a trio including history and Eng lit or chemistry and maths. Facilitating subjects are no longer something that unis look for, but those core subjects are more likely to be needed for a degree than (just as a random example) law A level, which no uni specifies for any course.

If you are shit hot at maths you are usually aware of it by gcse.

people who are shit hot at maths find maths and physics a levels easy because they are shit hot at maths.

i’m talking about the Olympiad, school has been putting them up a year since year 1 types.

anyone else has to work bloody hard at them. Not saying it’s not doable but the pace is fast and you need to put in the hours.

personally I did lots of humanities a levels and found them pretty easy so your mileage may vary.

I found maths in particular much easier as it was very predictable. You knew how to do something, did it in the exam, knew you'd got the grade. Science similar but not quite as straightforward. Essay subjects more complex.

It does depend on what you are good at. If you find maths and science easy, then they take no time at all. However if you are really good at English or History they still take as long to study as if you are bad at them as writing essays takes a long time, whether you are writing a good one or a bad one.

Years ago I taught, and I taught 3 different A level subjects - a traditional science, a social science and a vocational A level (not sure if that still exists). An E grade candidate on the traditional science could probably have got a C on the social science and an A on the vocational course. So I'd say not all A levels are equal.

I did alright at maths despite going to a shite secondary, people who went to better schools did worse. Loved chemistry and would have got an A* if available, biology not very hard.

DD is just going into Y13. She's studying a mix of two sciences and a humanity. All A levels require a lot of hard work, your DC should chose subjects they enjoy and are prepared to work at. DD worked steadily all last year and got 3As at the end of year 12, but I know several kids who had better GCSEs (DD's were good but not stellar) but have not worked hard enough and are struggling now.

How many years ago tho @Sausagescanfly? I ask bc A levels were reformed a few years ago (2015 – cleverly before the reformed GCSEs worked through) so the specs are very different.

My experience is that all A levels are challenging and require hard work. It seems clear that an A level is more accessible if you are good at the subject; but none of them is easy.

Yes, it was before those reforms, but I struggle to believe that you could really reforms subjects enough to make those that are conceptually less challenging equal to those that are conceptually challenging.

Presumably there is data out there for how pupils with various gcse results fare at each A level. That's going to be the best way to work this out.

Dd had to put it a lot more effort for chemistry than she did English literature. But I think you should look at what he wants to do for work. No good taking the easy route to nowhere.

Also depends on teachers. Maths was DCs favourite subject years 7-12. 9 at GCSE, A* in year 12 exams. Shite teachers for year 13 meant they just scraped an A, whilst doing far better in chemistry and biology.

I’m a Head of Maths.

For students who have got an 8 or 9 in GCSE Maths with a reasonable amount of hard work, A Level Maths is mostly quite straightforward; if they’ve got both a strong work ethic and a degree of ‘natural’ mathematical aptitude, there is no reason this sort of student wouldn’t achieve an A or an A star.

If they’ve got an 8 or a 9 at GCSE but with an over-reliance on ‘flair’ and are resistant to teacher feedback on ‘you must show all your working in a way that someone else can understand it’, they are likely to underperform at A Level Maths.

If a student has got a grade 7 (or a 6!) at GCSE, particularly where they’ve done so through sheer hard graft, it is reasonably common for the jump to A Level Maths (and then the jump between Year 12 and Year 13) to be too much and for students to struggle significantly - leading to a D/E/U grade.

In my experience, essay-based subjects are (on the whole) harder to achieve the very top grades in, but it’s also harder to fail. Maths/science are easier to achieve top grades (with all the caveats above) but also easier to fail.

This thread links to data on the progression from gcse grades to A level grade. It makes sociology look like a good bet. The data still has covid impacted results in the gcses, so presumably newer data would be better.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5345830-new-data-2021-2023-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level

No I wouldn't say it's more achievable to get 3As in no STEM, it's more of a skill jump for essay subjects, more nuance, critical evaluation, better essay style, more originality is needed and then there's so much content and wider reading, and perhaps coursework. Obviously this is a generalisation, what essay subjects are you considering specifically? I'd work backwards if there's any careers they're more interested in, or any field and do a subject which they need, then focus on what they want to learn, where they get intellectually stimulated by and may want to do at univeristy. It's easier to study for something like maths because it's just practice the same questions, plus a maths past paper is going to have a wide array of topics and skills whereas if you want to practice an essay question most of the time it's 45 minutes or an 1 hour for one topic for each question so they are both hard in different ways but it will always be harder if you hate the subject or don't like it because there's an extra layer of forcing yourself to study. That will always be needed to some point but more so if you choose a subject for the wrong reasons.

Back in the dark ages, before A* came along as a differentiator, I got As in all my GCSEs. But my maths A was torturous and my maths teacher made it VERY clear I was not an a level candidate - I suspect now it would be a hard fought 7 at best. Whereas I never gave the slightest thought to a single English essay either at GCSE or A Level and got high As both times, despite not even really enjoying it as a subject. I have a child who is basically me in reverse and I find it fascinating to see how effortless their maths is and how much they dread English homework. Interested to see the comments re ‘show your workings’ from a maths teacher upthread as this is our main battle with them! They are though quite conscientious and working on doing this now.

I have to say, I strongly resist the idea that there are “easy” or even “easier” A levels. They are all challenging – hence the A(dvanced).

Different subjects are more approachable by different people.

Presumably there is data out there for how pupils with various gcse results fare at each A level. That's going to be the best way to work this out

For sure. Many post-16 provisions will specify at least a 6 at GCSE and in some subjects a higher grade. 7 minimum in MFL and maths IMHO – mainly bc these are linear subjects and if you haven’t achieved that standard at GCSE, A level will be a struggle as it builds on the GCSE knowledge in a very specific way.

I taught A level chemistry for many years.

I taught many students who loved it at GCSE because they just ‘got it’ and could always score very good marks on tests without any serious revision. They found they could just ‘figure it out’ without having to do any rote learning. These students hated subjects like history and English literature where they had to learn endless quotes and facts.

These students generally came completely unstuck at A level. Not only did they have to ‘get it’, they also had to learn shedloads of word perfect definitions and recall facts. They also had to learn that ‘sort of right’ just doesn’t cut it at A level. Where you draw an arrow or where you place brackets or a charge really matters.

There are very few students who find A level chemistry easy. Most - even the brightest - find it much harder than GCSE.

Yes that's very true having a 6 in history will be fine compared to maths (obviously a higher grade will make it easier) but because the topics are widely different based on each school and the amount of options that can e done compared to something like maths where the topics build more directly on topics from GCSE. So you have to consider how essay subjects and humanities are about developing the skills and the content will be different and starting from scratch in a sense (other than Sociology where some of the topics are GCSE topics for Paper 1 and 3, and Paper 2 has choice, but less people do it at GCSE).

I think there are easier and harder A levels. DS did Product Design, Maths and Physics. He got a B, D, D. He did very, VERY little work for PD (though he got a 5 in it at GCSE), he worked very very hard for Maths (7 at GCSE) and medium hard for Physics (6 at GCSE). He was extremely disappointed with his Maths because he put so much into it and had tutoring for an entire year.

I think the competition in Maths is just so high. Some kids have taken maths GCSE in Year 10 (private schools) which gives them a whole extra year for A level. You don't really get that for any other subjects that I know of, at least it's not common. There are also multiple Maths programmes for high Maths achievers, summer schools run by Oxford etc., schools specialising in maths (eg. King's Maths school). These undoubtedly make the competition higher.

Of course if you're very very talented at something it will be easier than other subjects, but I think most kids at GCSE are fairly rounded and it can be hard to tell what you excel in and what you're terrible at. Mine are choosing A levels and I've steered them towards one essay based subject, one other subject (eg. MFL) and one science. I was surprised to see so many degree courses more interested in grades than subjects.

Well for me they would be a nightmare…but I barely had to study for English, History and Music 🤷‍♀️ It’s all relative isn’t it?

Surely the most important thing is what you want to do next in more general terms than where - if you are thinking of taking French with Music at uni then Maths, Further Maths and Physics A-Level won't be any use at all.

Some subjects have a very steep learning curve from gcse to a level, chemistry, for example. Dd achieved a 9 at gcse, but found the first couple of months of A level very hard.
It does really depend on your own skills. Dd achieved 4 a stars at a level with 100% in some of her maths and further maths papers, but would never have achieved those grades in any humanities a levels.

Agree with this summary. For example, one of the "shit hot at maths" people in DD's year had already got a top grade in A level maths before hitting sixth form age. DD got a grade 9 comfortably for GCSE maths. She got an A at A level, but she really had to work for it (resulting in a nail biting run up to results day, as meeting her Oxford offer for a non-maths-related subject required her to get that A).