Oxford open day next week :how are we supposed to fit it all in? How do we know which colleges to look at

[Opendaymaddnes]

Hello I'm trying to get my head around the open day and distances. The subject talk is quite early but it looks like we could spend all day at the subject talk area meeting tutors but we need to look at accommodation options also and colleges.

I've googled the best colleges for her subject and I hope to visit three? Does this sound like a plan? Is this what uther people do?

At no point would I suggest applying with "duff grades" or without the necessary PGs to meet an offer. However, the Oxbridge websites make it very clear that applicants are welcome with a majority of GCSE grades 7 - 9 and you certainly don't need 4x A stars if you haven't been at a high flying school where these are the expectation for your cohort.

Far too many are ready to dismiss candidates with a spiky profile and discourage them from applying, even though they meet the grades. These threads get even fiestier in Jan when some of those candidates receive an offer and the sure fire candidate from XYZ with a perfect profile has been deprived of their rightful place.

Yes. And then the mantra becomes: my DC's is predicted or achieved 4 A* so you must literally have to be a genius to get an offer. Which is of course nonsense (and that's before any positive discrimination complaints are levied).

Ha ha I had some very rude comments about the dcs. From dsis: “Oh, is that one of those new colleges?” (It wasn’t, but so what if it was?) and “Do they just draw names out of a hat?” And “It’s so nice they favour state-school pupils now.”

That's pretty shocking from a Dsis.

It is unusual odds, I suppose. Both my siblings and I studied/ study at oxbridge. We all chose relatively less competitive courses, although not because they were less competitive, just because they were what we wanted to study. We all have varying proportions of being very talented at our subject vs slogging our guts out. Difficult I think without some talent, but impossible without some slogging! It was definitely easier to feel at ease in the fancy buildings having already visited an older sibling there. Sibling warned me not to tell anyone in freshers that I had an older sibling at another college, lest they think me a "posh entitled wanker", which in hindsight was unlikely given my accent 😂.
Academically the interviews weren't made any easier by siblings, because they were totally different subjects with totally different interview requirements and techniques. And of course the tutors had no idea about any siblings.

The interviews were hard because of the questions. The academic questions made me think about stuff in my personal statement and material they gave me in ways I hadn't had to do before, which is part of the point. And generally being interviewed is tricky, like job interviews. There were two interviewers in each interview, but I only remember the main interviewer in each interview. One was lovely and friendly, very encouraging, but still asked me questions which flummoxed me somewhat. The other was more formal, cooler, and didn't do as much encouragement, so together with the questions being difficult I naturally thought I'd done badly, but I hadn't. As it turned out, both were absolutely brilliant and supportive tutors, one is just naturally more social and chatty than the other. The more formal one wasn't being deliberately off-putting, they're just like that!

No. You can’t get into a different college bar unless a friend takes you.

OP it’s a good idea as pps have said, to narrow down the choices as much as possible. We started by excluding colleges that didn’t offer accommodation for the entire degree (some do, the others offer two years for a standard 3 year undergraduate course, so people normally live out in the second year.
Dd wanted to be in college for the whole three years so that narrowed it down.

What I wish I’d known is mainly that the wealthier colleges have cheaper accommodation and more opportunities for grants for various things. Also each college has a different feel and ethos, some are more relaxed, some are friendlier. It’s strange but noticeable.
In our case dd hadn’t visited her college beforehand as it was during Covid times, it would have been nice to wander round a few and get a feel for them. **

Yes. My FIL was also a binman in this era (though he didn’t know my grandfather, who had died before I met DH). It’s not that long ago. FIL now 84 and has chronic back conditions from those years of humping the old metal bins into the crusher.

@TizerorFizz, I’m not sure what point you’re making. My own post showed that I’m aware of Oxbridge dynasties, surely, but my own experience in the 90s shows that it’s (or was then) also perfectly possible to get a place with no family experience, no school or parental support, no interview coaching etc. I appreciate the imaginativeness of the interviewers who saw something in a very unpolished, unprepared candidate.

Nor would you want to, generally! People get quite tribal about their college bars.
And obviously you can't use other college's libraries.

It is unusual odds, I suppose

I don't imagine that it is that unusual in terms of odds, once you get to a subsequent sibling. Assuming that an older sibling is enjoying themselves and not overwhelmed by the work at Oxford or Cambridge, I would think the odds of a younger sibling applying and getting an offer are very significantly higher. I'm talking about the modern era here.

Once the oldest sibling had got in (for one of the more applied to subjects - not convinced that that equates to more competitive), the others almost naturally followed. No-one followed in terms of college and there was a spread of subjects - some overlap, some out on a complete limb. I'm absolutely sure the fact of having an older sibling or siblings already there made the process easier.

OP I wouldn't worry too much about the number of people studying that subject in the college. D1 chose a course which was offered intermittently by about half the colleges, and only at the rate of one at a time. There were about 12 of them across the university in her year, and when she was in the 2nd year, she was the only person studying for that degree in her college. You still meet loads of people, those you live with and those you have lectures or tutes with.

But JulesJules with 12 across the uni your DD wouldn't have had the choice of going to a college with a large intake. If she did joint, was the intake for the two joint subjects reasonable at her college?

I agree that it doesn't make a huge difference socially but it seems to me to make some sort of sense if you're doing a single honours subject to look at average numbers per year at a particular college that you like the look of. Joint is a slightly different creature.

@GluttonousHag Yes of course that happens but dynasties is the wrong word. It’s just enough to have parents or even siblings who have been. You don’t need it to go back generations.

Of course Oxford like someone who will respond to their teaching style but it helps to know what that is! It helps to know what an interview is really like. It helps to know whether dc really has the stamina for the course and will actually enjoy Oxford. If you’ve been you have better intel. None of that means dc should not try. However attaining info and being brought up with the assumption that Oxford is more than a possibility, is a big advantage.

@Opendaymaddnes
You might find these FOI requests on Whatdotheyknow interesting.

Experimental Psychology Admission Rates By College
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/experimental_psychology_admissio_4

Experimental Psychology Application and Admission Data for 2023 entry
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/experimental_psychology_applicat

Experimental Psychology Admissions Handbook 2024/25 (parts redacted)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/experimental_psychology_admissio_6/response/2884676/attach/3/EP%20PPL%20Admissions%20Information%202024%2025%20November%20Redacted.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

We were told by a STEM admissions tutor that the subject admissions tests are really important, especially in differentiating and sorting the candidates to invite for interview, the majority of whom have high predicted grades, so if your daughter decides to apply, it is worth spending time practising the relevant test to give herself the best chance. And they will be used to shy students at interview, but if she can practise with a helpful teacher or family friend asking her questions, that might be helpful 😊.
Hope you and your daughter have a good day at the Open day. There should be students and admissions people there to answer any questions.

@WideningParticipation They give data on test results in terms of who gets an interview and then who is offered a place. Obviously this sits alongside interview and other data on exams, school etc. It’s an important part of the jigsaw when so many candidates are A star all the way. It also pinpoints the very good ones who might be predicted AAA and school might just be wrong! Interview then becomes a decider really.

I was one of those who said there was some luck involved - I didn’t say it because it wasn’t quite obvious to me, but because I thought it wasn’t necessarily obvious to the OP, who was trying to seek qualification of how intelligent students needed to be.

Of course - once the kids went through entrance tests, interviews, and completed their A-levels to the offer standard - and are already in Oxford, the slate is wiped clean and differences in the past performance is irrelevant.

However - in order to actually get the offer, you do need to perform at a very high standard during the selection process. And especially if you have to take PAT, MAT, or whatever test they do for medicine. It is not very likely that a student is only performing at, say, predicted grade A at Maths A-level - but aces highly mathematical Oxford entrance tests to be above the cut off point for the interviews. It is much likelier that someone who is working at A star level for Maths will have a chance of scoring high enough on those tests.

Saying "grade predictions matter" - is really a shorthand that indicates likelihood of scoring enough to get an interview....

However, until you have smashed the admissions tests and interviews, it's quite hard to know whether your PGs and GCSEs have ruled you out. Therefore, as I always say, don't waste your energy listening to those who say don't bother applying. You may get an offer.

My DD applied for Physics. With Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry - predicted at A stars. And all 9s at GSCEs.

Then I saw her prepare and take PAT for Oxford, and ESAT for Imperial...

Those are tough tests - she said they were tougher than actual A-levels in Maths - and she does not fund Maths, or even FM material challenging....

I am not saying that predicted grades matter per se, but realistically - I do not know how a child that is working below A star predicted level at Maths/Physics would be able to score high enough to get an interview.

As it is - most of the top 100 scoring kids at PAT this year were not from the UK - exam prep schools in China work really hard to prepare their kids for these tests. As well as the tests for Engineering and Maths...
UK kids then can get an extra 10 points for their 8/9 GCSE marks. I think this is done to give the local kids a fighting chance against the highly scoring international students.

So - yes, schools overpredict, and kids don't always meet their grades. But it is not about grades as a sign of achievement. In Maths and Sciences - predicted grades are a good indication of likelihood of scoring high enough for an interview. But even all stars predictions are not a guarantee.

@Dearover

Sure. Especially if you are applying for Humanities, or if there are no admissions tests.
If there are tests - it’s really best to at least look at the tests and see if you can realistically score anywhere close to the cut-off point for the interviews.

For the courses that have 10% rate of admissions - 90% did not get in. At least half of them should have not taken themselves through the stress of applying because they did not have a realistic chance.

It’s not a lottery. And it’s not cost free to apply - Oxbridge applications are due mid October.
This makes the fall term really stressful with UCAS statement due earlier; test prep; and stress of rejection…

That’s just my opinion given what my kid and their friends went through this year….

Well this thread started with posters being rude to the OP because she was daring to go with her DD to the open day. Then it moved onto requiring FM for maths and engineering, despite the OP's DD applying for EP. Now it's don't bother applying as you're wasting your time & don't deserve a place anyway.

Started early this year. 😂

@Dearover
I just looked at the thread and I don't think people were rude to the OP. I think she got a lot of good advice about how to pick colleges to look at, and what not too worry about.... not putting too much importance on college selection at this time.

Then - as it happens often conversation moved on to a broader conversation.

OP's daughter has the predicted grades to apply in any case. But that is not a guarantee - as her DD would need to do TSA. So people suggested that her best chance will be to start preparing in the summer.

OP clearly does not know much about the Oxbridge admissions process - and I think there is a lot of good information on the thread.

Apologies only commenting on the penultimate paragraph here. In our experience the October deadline was a bonus. It means personal statement and all that malarkey is done by October and is out of the way early in what is a very busy year. But yes, if a yp is prepping seriously for potential interview etc it is stressful, although all that does pay off when it comes to revision time in spring.

Oxford routinely turn down dc with all A stars at A level. I suspect sometimes the subjects are not what they think are best and DC haven’t aced the tests! If they get an interview, all A stars predicted doesn’t make dc better than others with a very similar prediction. The entry stats prove this. There’s human error in predictions and how dc think about the subject they have applied for varies. Sadly some dc are fairly one dimensional and cannot express themselves clearly despite looking very bright on paper. However acing the tests does matter in order to get an interview. Those accepted will have high test results and do well at interview but they won’t necessarily be predicted all A stars.

I think to a large extent it's just a matter of considering it to be a real option because family members have gone before, even in you are in circumstances (school/local area/friendship group) which wouldn't otherwise encourage it. Also perhaps feeling that little bit more confident as a result and maybe being better informed about interviews etc - though that sort of information can become very out of date after a generation, and there is plenty of better information available online.

There is, however, a far wider cross-section of society applying for and receiving places at Oxford and Cambridge than there was a generation ago.