Stressing about DD's Uni Yr 3 year abroad - Portugal

[andjustwhatfreshhellisthis]

DD is supposedly going to Portugal in September for her Yr3 - she's studying Spanish and Portuguese at a UK Uni (4 year course) and the year abroad is mandatory.

Up until now, there has been very limited information provided from her Uni, regarding what she needs to do to get things done because it all harnesses on the Portuguese Uni application process and I'm extremely worried that we will run out of time to get things sorted.

We've been told that the application window opens on the 23rd June (so next week) and we have no idea how long it will take for them to process her application. She's already provided them with a proficiency certificate and they were very quick to come back and say that it was sufficient. Fingers crossed they'll confirm her place just as quick. However, she has been told by her UK Uni that she can't apply for a visa or organise accommodation until she has her place at the Portuguese Uni confirmed.

I read on a FB post it can take months to get a visa appointment! so what happens if she doesn't get a visa in time before the academic year starts; what do we do?

And how does she go about looking/applying for accommodation? She's already been told that Halls aren't available so that means she'll be living with people she doesn't know albeit overseas students, but they may not be Portuguese language students and I'm worried she'll end up in a hell-hole.

The UK Uni hasn't opened up the 'blackboard' (that's what they refer to it as) section of their on-line information so we've no idea if they supply accommodation links or if DD has to sort all of that alone. (We've asked the Uni directly (as we need to organise ourselves) and they will only correspond with DD, not with us))

In addition, she wants us (DH and I) to travel with her and spend a few days prior to her starting her course, with her and finding her way around so we have to look to book holiday from work, book flights, find a place to stay and it's all last minute!! Starting to panic!! Help....

I'm familiar with your very fixed view on ML degrees and frankly it's too hot to get into a debate over it. But there are many more things employers look for, and you are expressing a rather old-fashioned view on what employers are looking for. How many ML graduates go on to use their languages in their careers anyway?

All you know about my uni is that the ML department offer more flexibility these days to students who make a case to skip the YA for personal reasons. You're in no position to assert anything on that basis about the relative quality of our degrees.

@whyschoolwhy Like many others I see a MFL degree as primarily an academic degree. Therefore high standards should be maintained. If you are ragging on a bit of conversational Spsnish to a business degree it’s not the same. I think I’m sticking with MFL being a rigorous academic degree with the gold standard being Oxbridge and a few others. I know DCs find MFLs hard but this is what separates out grads. I’m aware employers want well rounded grads with a good cv. Doing the year abroad helps enormously with this. A few language classes in the hols isn’t the same.

You should read up on the benefits of even a short term overseas experience. Lots of students can't afford the cost of a year abroad, or can't go away from home for a year due to other responsibilities. They can still benefit hugely from a short-term overseas experience, which shouldn't be dismissed as a few language classes in the holidays.

Also there is a school of thought that a ML degree is actually not that academic. I know I had a shock going from my ML degree to a Master's degree, which required me to use academic skills I hadn't been exposed to at UG level.

That’s quite a silly thing to say. I know of several leading universities in Germany and France which don’t provide accommodation. TUM, Köln, the Paris universities ….

Hi there...sorry for delay in replying but have been avoiding coming back to the thread
From what we were told on the zoom call, you have to have this in addition to your passport. You need to provide something called an 'immigration status share code' so when you have your VISA appointment, its a way of them checking that you are a UK resident. I think I recall them saying its a 9 digit number but I could be wrong...
I believe its relatively simple, you set up and account and go from there.

@andjustwhatfreshhellisthis I think this is just for non-British citizens.

@whyschoolwhy that was what I thought - it seems odd that someone with a UK passport would need to prove right to remain in the UK. DD is going to have a go at the portal and see what happens.

This is an interesting perspective about trends in MFL degrees - DD and I were discussing how long is necessary to be abroad. Pre Uni DD spent 10 months in Marseille working as an au pair and then an agency nanny and did feel that 2-3 months wouldn't really be long enough and 9-10 months was a good time to get to know a city and be immersed in a language.

That said you can learn an awful lot of a language in 2-3 months if well taught. So certainly something to explore. That said some students do need to earn money in their summer holidays and going for an intensive language course can be costly. How is your Uni managing these short overseas experiences - what are they doing?

And worth noting lots of students years abroad aren't that great - slightly miserable Teaching Assistant roles in remote small towns where life is quite lonely. Or students living the Erasmus dream with lots of other international students and not always being immersed int he language.

@Juja Your DD had the luxury of a year abroad before doing her degree and probably has lots of MFL advantages. Many dc simply don’t do this as it makes it at least 5 years before they get a grad job. It’s also not just about perfecting the spoken language abroad. My DD did academic courses. It’s not just speaking. She also completed witk for her home uni they were mini dissertations. They were studies in cultural aspects of the countries she studied in. In other words linked to where she was and academic research. Just a couple of months hardly gets dc started. What do you do with 2 MFLs? It’s all very well for native speakers with family from MFL country, but what about everyone else?

@TizerorFizz yes my DD has lots of advantages but we didn't give her any financial support for her year before Uni. She earned money waitressing while doing her A Levels for her insurance and travel costs then worked as an aupair. When after 6 months that became problematic she worked hard as an agency nanny. We didn't have any contacts for her overseas but could offer lots of TLC and support.

I agree a four year degree does mean an extra year of loans and some students need to start earning quicker though interestingly many stem degrees are now 4 years (admittedly integrated Masters) and Scottish degrees are all also four years.

Continuing some academic work is good - DD is planning to do her dissertation work in her Year Abroad and also take some Uni courses. Those working and acting as Teaching Assistants don't through do much academic work. And each Uni has different requirements for credits and work.

I'm with you that a couple of months isn't ideal but it may be better than people not studying foreign languages especially if you do it both summers and are only doing one language.

Role on Erasmus and Youth Mobility reintroduction allowing study and work overseas...

There is masses of student accommodation in and around Paris. Eligibility criteria vary but students on reciprocal exchange programmes often are offered student accommodation.

I agree with both your points. MFL degrees are insufficiently academic vs many other humanities degrees and short immersive overseas experiences can be very powerful. IMO students can afford to be braver when they know the experience isn't going to last quite as long. Committing to 9 or 10 months in a country you don't know well (or at all) with people you don't know is a big ask of many perfectly competent 20 year olds and the temptation to go with friends or hang out with other International students is strong in order to avoid months of loneliness. Committing to 3 months immersively is much less of a deal.

@andjustwhatfreshhellisthis I just wanted to offer you my sympathies. DD did her year abroad in Spain and I think we are still traumatised by the experience! The university doesn’t support so it does require the student to do it all themselves, and accommodation etc was a hassle but ultimately doable.

The visa process on the other hand was a Kafkaesque nightmare. Both before she went and then registering for the identity card when she got there. Different embassy webpages saying different things, the town halls and police stations in Spain advising different reqmts. She just about managed to start term on time despite starting the process as early as possible, others missed the beginning.

But…ultimately she had a fabulous year and it was definitely worth it. And she learned great resilience and independence by all the visa chaos. Not sure I’ll forgive Brexit though - her friend going to Spain had an EU passport and had no difficulties whatsoever. Ditto another friend going to South America. Is Brazil an option? ☺️

Good luck - it will eventually get sorted but you may gain a few grey hairs watching her sort it out in the process!

@Juja our students do a wide range of activities during the summer - summer schools in the Netherlands, volunteering in Fiji, work experience placements in China to name a few examples. Most of them aren't about language immersion but obviously there are lots of other benefits.

From a language immersion perspective, I studied two languages, so spent around four months in each country during my year abroad. And no one has turned their nose up at my degree to date! So yes I think an intensive summer abroad can be a suitable replacement, and also circumvents the visa issues.

@Juja Just studying one MFL is dumbing down for people who like MFLs though. Dd was told by quite a few people not to do that as it limited breadth. She was able to do 2 MFL A levels at school. I would imagine your DD sees her degree as academic and in line with other academic subjects, plus MFL teaching. I don’t believe my dd was any less able than those who did English or History. Except they don’t speak or read any other language.

Theres also the point about doing what you are good at and how your brain works! I think MFLs have been shown to enhance cognitive ability. So the oft touted rubbish about them not being academic is rubbish but just a few weeks abroad is heading towards that.

@whyschoolwhy @juja

Ah, thank you! One less thing!

The length of time spent abroad has no relation to how academic a degree is. You may argue it's better for language fluency. But it's irrelevant to how academic the programme is. Unless you've got someone who's going to study modules that go into matters like critical theory in greater depth than they would at their home university.

Many ML students spend their year abroad teaching English!

@TizerorFizz Nothing "enhances academic ability". Bilingualism (which is not the same as MFL second language acquisition) is proven to have a protective effect against cognitive decline in old age - this is not surprising since bilinguals must constantly suppress one of their languages, meaning they are doing a major brain workout every time they speak or write.

@TizerorFizz My view is those doing single language honours degrees are just as academic as dual languages. At Oxford you can do French, German, Spanish and Russian as single subjects and also Arabic, Chinese, Persian etc. The courses will require more literature, history, linguistics and culture options.

People take single honours in English Literature so it is comparable to that. The range of modules on offer to DD is mind blowing in each language - all very academic. The language acquisition in MFL is in a way the means to the academic studies and often those who are bilingual do not have an advantage when it comes to the academic studies.

DD happens to do two languages but I don't think that makes her degree more academic that someone doing say just French...

@Juja I didn’t mean they weren’t academic as such but they are doing something a bit narrow. I think from DDs experience, that’s true. A lot of the same thing.

@Ceramiq It’s still a better brain without then just English!

Oh sure.

One of the very curious and repeatedly observable aspects of MFL in education/higher education is the propensity of countries to appropriate languages and culture and view them through their own prism - even recreate them. Proper bilinguals are then at a disadvantage to second language learners because their native traditions are not the local ones.

Famously, one of the French prépas aux Grandes Ecoles used to offer an English language course in southern England to its students in the summer between the first and second year of the course. The teachers on this course were all French natives qualified in teaching English as a foreign language because the prépa couldn't find native English teachers who taught English the way it wanted and was required by the competitive entrance examinations to the Grandes Ecoles.

My DD was largely taught by Italians! Even at school. French slightly more mixed but who cares as long as it’s to a high standard. DD isn’t competing with anyone regarding MFLs. Left them behind now apart from on holiday. It’s a means to an end.

Back in the day DDs boyfriend went to a grand Ecole to study engineering and a school friend studied French at one - via Cambridge. They seemed fine.

The market for Italian as a foreign language is tiny so it's easy to recruit native speakers into the role and there isn't a massive move to appropriate Italian. English? There are many variants (the English spoken in Germany is very different to the English spoken in France and it's not just about interference, it's about traditions and beliefs). The French taught in English schools/universities is IME quite peculiar a lot of the time.