Stressing about DD's Uni Yr 3 year abroad - Portugal

[andjustwhatfreshhellisthis]

DD is supposedly going to Portugal in September for her Yr3 - she's studying Spanish and Portuguese at a UK Uni (4 year course) and the year abroad is mandatory.

Up until now, there has been very limited information provided from her Uni, regarding what she needs to do to get things done because it all harnesses on the Portuguese Uni application process and I'm extremely worried that we will run out of time to get things sorted.

We've been told that the application window opens on the 23rd June (so next week) and we have no idea how long it will take for them to process her application. She's already provided them with a proficiency certificate and they were very quick to come back and say that it was sufficient. Fingers crossed they'll confirm her place just as quick. However, she has been told by her UK Uni that she can't apply for a visa or organise accommodation until she has her place at the Portuguese Uni confirmed.

I read on a FB post it can take months to get a visa appointment! so what happens if she doesn't get a visa in time before the academic year starts; what do we do?

And how does she go about looking/applying for accommodation? She's already been told that Halls aren't available so that means she'll be living with people she doesn't know albeit overseas students, but they may not be Portuguese language students and I'm worried she'll end up in a hell-hole.

The UK Uni hasn't opened up the 'blackboard' (that's what they refer to it as) section of their on-line information so we've no idea if they supply accommodation links or if DD has to sort all of that alone. (We've asked the Uni directly (as we need to organise ourselves) and they will only correspond with DD, not with us))

In addition, she wants us (DH and I) to travel with her and spend a few days prior to her starting her course, with her and finding her way around so we have to look to book holiday from work, book flights, find a place to stay and it's all last minute!! Starting to panic!! Help....

I am old enough to have read (several times) the first edition of The Student Handbook first published in the late 1970s by the Publications Office of the EU which for the first time collated information for EEC students wishing to enrol in a university in another EEC country. My understanding of how barriers to students mobility were slowly removed is deep and my understanding of how barriers were erected by Brexit is deep too. As you are well aware, websites have the luxury of changing published information and erasing that which was previously published.

@Juja has documented on this thread and others the misrepresentation and misselling of her DD's year abroad.

@Ceramiq no one is denying that Brexit has made it harder. I feel like you keep moving the goalposts in this debate.

Also I see that @Juja is dissatisfied with the lack of information from her DD's university but not that the year abroad was missold to them. Perhaps that is on other threads that I haven't seen.

I"m not "moving any goalposts", just responding to a conversation which, as is quite normal in any conversation, throws up new points for clarification.

I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge just how massive the barriers thrown up by Brexit are for MFL undergraduates. It's not your fault and no one in is accusing you personally of being responsible. The responsibilities are political and institutional.

@Ceramiq There are many universities in many countries that don’t have university accommodation. They cannot offer what is not there! As you know, many dc abroad live at home. The universities are very regional and don’t have vast halls of residence. There might be private ones but it’s down to uk students to apply. If you know students exchanging into uni accommodation they are very lucky. My DD did in Geneva. Elsewhere - no chance.

In a more general way, international student mobility, which was once a rather high-minded arena fuelled by ideals of goodwill and intellectual exchange and powered by philanthropy/state subsidy (Erasmus was borne of such deals), is now by and large massively commercial, with all the dangers that entails (aggressive marketing, profiteering, misselling...). There is still quite a lot of obfuscation between these two philosophies of international student mobility, hence much of the confusion within universities and among parents/students.

International students really shouldn't be going to insignificant regional universities where all students live at home.

@Lampzade A good study abroad department organises this for students at a meeting. Y4 students volunteer. DD did.

@Ceramiq I have not denied at any point that Brexit has made it harder for students?? This is one of the weirder debates I've ever been involved in on MN to be frank.

My main point all along has been to try to make it clear that the expectations that students and their parents have are sometimes unrealistic because UK universities do not have the resource or expertise or indeed remit to provide what some expect. The role of the study abroad office is usually to manage exchange partnerships, promote the year abroad, and provide advice before, during and afterwards. But that support has limits and students do have to do a lot of their own groundwork.

What you call "groundwork" minimises unrealistic expectations, unsurmountable bureaucratic hurdles, complex logistics and significant out of pocket expenditure. At the very least, universities have a responsibility (a minima a moral duty though commercial legalities also come into play) to outline the harsh realities of attempting a MFL year abroad in the post-Brexit world at the point at which students apply.

@whyschoolwhy It would seem (please correct me if I have misunderstood) that you work in a study abroad office. Obviously you have a budget and limited resources to perform your role according to your job description. The fact that international student mobility is becoming exponentially harder (not just the ending of FoM and Erasmus but also additional barriers in other countries) needs be acknowledged at university level not made the responsibility of individual students or of admin roles.

@Ceramiq since when did any organisation of any sort refer in their marketing materials how difficult/expensive/taxing/stressful their product can be? That's not how the world works!

Instead we take the sensible approach of telling students they have the opportunity to spend a year abroad as part of their degree, and then providing them with more information about the steps involved as they get closer to preparing for it. At my university no one is forced to do a year abroad if the costs are prohibitive, and we barely get anyone withdrawing from the year abroad because of the bureaucracy involved. They moan but they get through it. Most withdrawals we get are either due to simply not having the funding for an extra year of study or 'personal reasons', aka they've fallen in love or don't want to leave their friends.

As I mentioned in my post just now, no one is forced to do a year abroad at my uni. They choose to do it, and with that comes the responsibility of organising it.

@whyschoolwhy "since when did any organisation of any sort refer in their marketing materials how difficult/expensive/taxing/stressful their product can be? That's not how the world works!"

Strong disagree. There are massive caveats and warnings in all sorts of industries.

Then perhaps realise that you are in a very different position to a university where the year abroad is an integral part of the course in order to graduate?

@whyschoolwhy Then you obviously don’t run high calibre MFL degrees. If you did, you would know it was a compulsory and very important year. Many MFL students would tell you that immersion in the MFL is vital and can only be attained on the year abroad.

@whyschoolwhy My DD appears to be in a different situation to your students. She does have to spend a year abroad; it is compulsory as she is studying languages and being abroad is an integral part of her course as @Ceramiq notes. Her home Uni charges her £1800 for fees next year when she is not there so it is not unreasonable to expect some support. They make them do risk assessments and provide travel insurance but all that is useless if you have no Uni to go to.

As I explained above, her Uni has no exchange partnerships with Italian Unis - I appreciate this is not normal but that is the reality and I have double checked this. Inevitably this makes matters much more complicated post Brexit in making applications to Italian Unis.

What DD and I have found out through 'lived experience' would enormously help MFL students applying to Italy in future years until Erasmus starts again (fingers crossed). I think we will write up a quick guide.

Thank goodness the Dante Alighieri Centre for Language and Culture has an excellent, reasonable value offer for 9 months language tuition and is based in a stunning building in the middle of Rome. This being over 20 hrs a week tuition will get her a study visa and then she will get a residency permit on arrival and can then sign onto Sapienza modules. We are now cup half full!

@andjustwhatfreshhellisthis can I ask your advice about the UK Residence Permit. Is this required even if you hold a UK passport? Have you started the process and was it reasonably simple?

Thanks for your advice - I totally empathise with your stress.

Ha, that's quite the assumption. The reality is that our ML department would have dearly loved to keep the YA compulsory, but too many students are dropping out of it now, so they've had to become more flexible. It's still mandatory on paper but not in reality. Other universities will go along the same route, I guarantee.

Just today it's come to my attention that the Office for Students will stop providing top-up fees to universities for sending students on a year abroad. So the services universities can provide to support year abroad students are going to become even more strained.

To be frank, more demand for shorter term summer experiences abroad is the way things are going.

I wondered this - I can't imagine it would be required for UK citizens.

@whyschoolwhy "To be frank, more demand for shorter term summer experiences abroad is the way things are going."

A three month intensive summer stint in an immersive language/cultural setting has a lot going for it. Lots of universities the world over work on "semester abroad" rather than "year abroad" models and students in many countries do summer schools (for credit or not). Thinking a bit more creatively about what MFL undergraduate language learning can look like is definitely the way forward.

@whyschoolwhy Then your degrees are not high quality then are they? They cannot match the best universities. No wonder employers get concerned. They are not degrees that are as good as other degrees and you haven’t done much to ensure they are by the sounds of it.

@whyschoolwhy "Just today it's come to my attention that the Office for Students will stop providing top-up fees to universities for sending students on a year abroad. So the services universities can provide to support year abroad students are going to become even more strained."

What does this mean in practice for your office?

You obviously consider yourself to be the first and last authority on ML, and perhaps you do have some experience to offer, but your post suggests your knowledge isn't very up-to-date, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of current issues facing the HE sector.

In practice my office doesn't see the money, but it's likely to make senior management reconsider how much resource they put into study abroad in general, especially in the current financial context, with many universities looking at streamlining what they offer and reducing their workforce.

@whyschoolwhy Yes we all know the issues! Even me!

Poor degrees that are not value for money is a big problem. Especially for employers wading through applications. You cannot compare what you appear to offer with a high quality academic degree in MFL. Simply not the same and any academic would know that.

A MFL degree isn’t just about a couple of months on a short course. I’m well aware that post Brexit it’s a shit show but dumbing down degrees puts your students at a disadvantage if they are not native speakers. Whatever the issues at some universities regarding study abroad, at least most people recognise the value of it. It’s a necessity to achieve the standards required for a MFL degree. If it’s just a bolt on to a business degree, that’s different. Since when did students dictate what an academic degree looks like?!