Stressing about DD's Uni Yr 3 year abroad - Portugal

[andjustwhatfreshhellisthis]

DD is supposedly going to Portugal in September for her Yr3 - she's studying Spanish and Portuguese at a UK Uni (4 year course) and the year abroad is mandatory.

Up until now, there has been very limited information provided from her Uni, regarding what she needs to do to get things done because it all harnesses on the Portuguese Uni application process and I'm extremely worried that we will run out of time to get things sorted.

We've been told that the application window opens on the 23rd June (so next week) and we have no idea how long it will take for them to process her application. She's already provided them with a proficiency certificate and they were very quick to come back and say that it was sufficient. Fingers crossed they'll confirm her place just as quick. However, she has been told by her UK Uni that she can't apply for a visa or organise accommodation until she has her place at the Portuguese Uni confirmed.

I read on a FB post it can take months to get a visa appointment! so what happens if she doesn't get a visa in time before the academic year starts; what do we do?

And how does she go about looking/applying for accommodation? She's already been told that Halls aren't available so that means she'll be living with people she doesn't know albeit overseas students, but they may not be Portuguese language students and I'm worried she'll end up in a hell-hole.

The UK Uni hasn't opened up the 'blackboard' (that's what they refer to it as) section of their on-line information so we've no idea if they supply accommodation links or if DD has to sort all of that alone. (We've asked the Uni directly (as we need to organise ourselves) and they will only correspond with DD, not with us))

In addition, she wants us (DH and I) to travel with her and spend a few days prior to her starting her course, with her and finding her way around so we have to look to book holiday from work, book flights, find a place to stay and it's all last minute!! Starting to panic!! Help....

Isn't it more like "if adults want to live abroad they're going to have to take some responsibility and initiative"? A university's job is to educate you. It's no more their responsibility to house you abroad than it is their responsibility to house you in the UK (albeit some do, particularly in the first year, it's not an obligation), make sure you arrive safely at the UK campus etc.

**Most likely they'll just close their ML departments. Students of lots of other academic disciplines choose to do optional years abroad

Anecdotally, this was DD's experience this year - very few international students across 2 countries studying MFL, more business related subjects with JH language or elective language modules added onto their core studies.

@Michele09 I will leave others to comment on their own or DCs' respective experiences of universities, other than to say the usual suspects do JH - UCL, KCL, Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Exeter, Loughborough, York, Durham, Edinburgh, St Andrews, I think still Glasgow as well as Oxbridge as well as more in the full tier spectrum (subject to continuous cuts). If your DD's more adventurous, she could also consider Ireland which would at least overcome the hurdle of Erasmus accessibility, though hopefully that will also be set to change from UK UG students soon. Just work out her A levels/IB predicted against the rough number of points needed for the Irish system (CAO site has all the info).

All courses will differ. Over her sixth form, your DD should work out what's important to her in a study programme. Some will focus more on language acquisition, less on the history, cultural, literature, politics etc, or vsv. Some will be more flexible on module choices to align with the student's interests, others will have core which could include dry, less interesting stuff (all subjective!).

In our case, the YA was the most important factor for DD, the total immersion including being taught in target language to offset her starting her ab initio language later in Y2. Her feedback was that the Edinburgh, St Andrews, Durham etc students' Arabic language skills were more advanced, but they had less overall ME regional knowledge across the wider modules, which was primary as part of her multi disciplinary programme (vs straight JH). It made sense, 6 hours language hours vs her 2 per week. But it was a conscious choice and she caught up in all but speaking she thinks. Her Spanish was conversely more advanced, more down to her having invested acquisition to include business Spanish through work opportunities. She aims to use her Spanish post studies, not all MFL have this desire.

Many European universities study late into the summer. Students in Istanbul were sitting their exams over xmas period! So double check the schedules if she needs to be back home for summer/internships etc.

Final point from me on this thread for prospective students is that even studying in an Erasmus university, the only upside is the relationships gained from all the partner universities, which I would suggest she researches as part of her shortlisting. The downside is that apart from sign off on study/activity for YA, the onus is pretty much on the student to source the accommodation and check the appropriateness of course, take the necessary language tests, find room mates, work out visa requirements, translate requirements off websites etc. This thread shows that you do not rely on the home university's communications, it's also often out of date. DD's small course has had her peers attend universities in Middle East, Morocco, Istanbul, Germany, Austria, Italy and France and ONLY DD's Cairo accom was university aligned assigning her a female only apartment. She found her own comms with dept ahead of departure so shitty she arranged a zoom call for all the Y2's choosing their options as a FAQ session.

Good luck, hope this thread hasn't put off another language UG hopeful :)

In academic disciplines beyond MFL, years abroad are not always an integral part of the degree ie it doesn't matter if you decide not to take it up and there are also many degree options that are long term reciprocal exchanges, some of which pre-exist Erasmus. Reciprocal exchanges are harder to organise for MFL degrees but it really shouldn't be beyond the capacity of universities to find a solution given that European universities are crying out for exchange programmes with UK universities.

@andjustwhatfreshhellisthis Really? Yes years ago and I’ve openly said that. Anyway do go on waiting. Luckily I’m not involved in any way and DD is successfully working.

Was I? Apologies...
I think I was clear in my OP and title and subsequent post that I am finding this all very stressful. I really didn't need someone patronising me and saying that waiting isn't proactive. I'm fully aware of that, hence the reason for my thread and trying to find people who might be able to offer helpful advice rather than, in my view, a condescending response...

I am aware that DD is an adult and must do the majority herself but none of you know her and what she's been through to get here so any help I can offer I want to give. As any parent would.

Thank you to those who have offered help and advice, I really appreciate it.

I'll be leaving the thread but I am grateful to those who replied with useful help, support and info.
😊😊

Well done to your DD on her success. As you didn't do a thing to help her, you won't be taking any credit for it...yet here you are.

Another patronising response...thanks for ruining my thread... cheerio 😊

@Ceramiq I'm not sure I get your point. This isn't about the ability to set up exchange agreements, it's about how much support universities can offer to students preparing to go on a year abroad.

@andjustwhatfreshhellisthis Why on earth would I take credit for DD being a barrister? She’s a self starter and sorting out her year abroad was all down to her. Not me. I don’t hover. Never have and never will. Nor do I take credit for something dd has done by herself and for herself.

I do think when dc look at MFL degrees, or ones with compulsory year abroad, the open days are when dc need to raise this and dig into exchanges and arrangements. DDs university did have great exchange links with international universities. They list their exchange universities for students to look at. Students are not left to choose random places they might like. The student exchange officers are then able to give a better insight into how systems work and an early heads up to students is obviously necessary.

@whyschoolwhy good to have a uni's perspective. You raise some good points - I did seriously doubt whether my DD has missed something so yesterday I made her sit me down and let me go through her home Uni online portal with all the guidance she has been given.

Having read everything I can assure you Oxford's guidance is massively out of date and incomplete.

1. Language Requirement: Nowhere does it say you have to upload a specific B2 language certificate for your Universitlay application to be compliant. A letter from your Uni doesn't count. An A'Level doesn't count. These tests only happen three times a year and take 2-4 months to get the results. I think the Home Uni should warn you and early in Year 2 so you can take the B2 test in the December or April so you have the result in plenty of time.

2. UniversItaly portal: the information from her home Uni had a passing reference to Universitaly but no where in the home Uni documents or presentations did it say this is now the only way to apply for a uni course in Italy if you are a non EU citizen. The embassy require a letter from UniversItaly to process your visa unless you are on an exchange arrangement.

3. Internal University Portals: At the same time you fill in Universitaly portal you also apply to the individual uni through their own portal. Italian Unis produce their course catalogues very late - this was published in early June for Sapienza and you can now apply for full Bachelor and Master degrees but the Sapienza portal Infostud doesn't allow you to apply to study separate modules until September and the courses begin on 22nd September. This they have confirmed by email.

As @TizerorFizz rightly points out the guidance from some Italian Unis such as Bologna is much better. Sapienza is a very large uni with no need to cater to MFL students from UK unis like Oxford who can't be bothered to set up bilateral agreements. As @Ceramiq points out European Unis would love the link - despite being an Oxford graduate myself who is a big fan of the place I am massively unimpressed what poor guidance they offer. If we weren't in the position to help navigate like @andjustwhatfreshhellisthis and subsidise them the YA studying at a Uni would be almost impossible.

@Juja most of the information you are looking for is information that should be provided by the host institution, not the home institution. A typical university will have between 50-150 international partners, perhaps across 10-20 countries. With the resource most study abroad teams have, you can't possibly keep up to date information on what each institution requires for admission, or accommodation, or the complicated visa requirements for each country. We provide this information for exchange students coming to study at our own university and require our partners to do the same in return. Yes the amount of guidance universities offer varies hugely, particularly in Europe where there is much less of a spoon-fed approach to dealing with students. However, UK universities do not have the resources to provide detailed guidance on every aspect of applying to live and study at each of their partner universities, and ensure it is kept up to date with all changes. Apart from being heavily resource intensive it would also leave us liable if we were to accidentally misadvise a student and end up costing them money.

Once again, we're not travel agents.

Just a tiny little comment on the ACRO - I had to apply for one recently and you can get a fast track version in around 48 hours and also a fast track legalisation process. You might not need it as you are getting together all the other documents but if you did need it faster it does work well. I applied from abroad and they held their timelines.

@whyschoolwhy Like you I don't agree in spoon feeding but it is wrong to provide inaccurate guidance as Oxford do. I have read their guidance and it is incorrect and out of date.

Her Uni has 40 students studying Italian each year and they have no agreements with Italian Universities for year abroad students. One college has an agreement with Sienna for four students to go but students at that college get first dibs.

My comments in post above above are requirements general to applicants to all Universities in Italy due to this single Portal. I don't think it is unreasonable for homes Uni to provide accurate guidance on how to apply to study at Italian Universities given post Brexit it is impractical for those without EU citizenship to get a job and a year abroad is a requirement of the course.

@andjustwhatfreshhellisthis has explained her DD has had a most helpful zoom from Glasgow Uni about applying for a visa. Students at Oxford are told it is unlawful for the Uni to give guidance on applying for a visa.

I have to say I'm very surprised that Oxford have barely any exchange agreements, and I imagine this single application portal you mention only applies to year abroad students in these circumstances - if they did have exchange agreements, the student would likely be able to apply directly via a different process.

I'm also surprised that Glasgow are giving out visa advice for other countries. Perhaps they are buying in the expertise. We don't do it because as far as we're concerned it's unlawful. The staff at my university who give visa advice for students coming to the UK have to have special external training in order to do so, so I suspect either Glasgow are doing it in good faith without being aware of the legal ramifications, or they're just reading generic information that's published on a website.

The two are intimately related: I know off the top of my head several students going to Paris and Berlin this year on long-standing programmes where the reciprocal arrangement includes university accommodation, a precise course of study, specific courses to assist with integration in the university system etc.

@Ceramiq yes but I never suggested not having exchange agreements was the way forwards. I have talked only of studying abroad in the context of an exchange agreement.

You seem very confused.

International student exchange is a massive thing! Students from all over the world go to other countries all over the world to study in huge numbers every year and there are all sorts of support services to enable that which could inspire UK universities for their MFL students whose year abroad is an integral and obligatory part of their course but that has become a bureaucratic nightmare since Brexit.

@Ceramiq I am confused, yes. I don't know why you keep telling me things I already know. This is literally my job.

The hurdles around studying abroad don't just disappear because you have an exchange agreement. Indeed the majority
of UK students who study abroad do so under the framework of a bilateral agreement. They still need to get visas and often have to find their own accommodation etc..

Properly run exchange agreements (and I know many of them, and have been in this space for 45 years) do in fact provide sufficient support such that students do not find themselves alone in unanticipated bureaucratic jungles and financially out of pocket. Since Brexit, which removed the very substantial support of both EU FoM and Erasmus (separate things), many UK universities have been putting their heads in the sand and are misrepresenting and misselling their MFL courses.

@Ceramiq well, I disagree and I would be curious to know to what extent you are 'in this space'. No one is putting their head in the sand, UK universities are constantly lobbying the government for better resources and support to deal with student mobility post-Brexit. Perhaps if universities were sufficiently funded or if students paid for the support you/they expect, things would be different, and indeed universities would be able to provide a travel support service.

Dd attended one of the top unis in Spain for her year abroad. However, she received very little help from her British university with regard to navigating the process and basically did everything by herself
She was fortunate to receive some Turing funding for her course
Most of the useful information she received was from other students who attended the Spanish university for their year abroad
They gave her information regarding the best modules to take, the nightlife, student accommodation , health insurance ( which was came in handy as Dd was hospitalised twice during the year) .
So I would advise your dc to use speak to other students through social media groups / WhatsApp student abroad groups etc

UK universities only need to be upfront and truthful on their websites about post-Brexit realities to avoid misrepresenting and misselling their MFL degrees.

The expectation (that has by and large been created by Erasmus) that students ought to be able to study immersively for a year in a university in another EU country with few bureaucratic hurdles is wildly out of touch. Students enrolling in MFL courses today ought to be aware that their 3rd year options may well be limited to language courses for foreigners. This was the case pre-Erasmus.

@Ceramiq do you have an example of a misleading university website?

Yes - it’s all down to Brexit.
DD1 went to University in the Netherlands in 2019 so post-Brexit but still in the transition phase, no bureaucracy and about €3k a year.

Dd2 is due to start university in the Netherlands in September and we are up to our neck in paperwork and it’s about €11k a year now.

Students currently in their second year of MFL degrees and needing to go abroad next year chose their courses on the basis of information supplied by universities in 2022 for university courses beginning in 2023. Misselling and misrepresentation was widespread at that point.

@Ceramiq so no then.

Perhaps there were some universities who still had outdated references to Erasmus on their websites, but in the absence of evidence you can't really refer to it being widespread misselling.