Uni offers and private school

[Mydogiscuter]

My DD attended a grammar school until sixth form when she was offered a significant academic and sports scholarship for a local private school, primarily because she plays sport at an elite level and also got all 7-9 grades at GCSE.

Our postcode falls in a deprived area and there is no way DD would have gone to the Private School without the scholarship. Will this be considered within her application?

DS took a course where FM was required unless the school did not offer it. Several of his peers entered without FM. It was tough.

1. they covered half the content of one FM paper in one lecture. So effectively those without had to work quickly, without teacher support to catch up.
2. Several of those without FM had self-studied FM to AS level. (Still possible I believe, though more difficult if playing high level sport.)

I agree aptitude is hugely important. Top grades in two maths A levels are not difficult for those who find it easy to grasp concepts, but awful for those who don't. GCSE is an imperfect predictor, in the same way as A level grades are an imperfect predictor of university performance.

The gap can be bridged. DD went straight into the third year of an engineering degree at Imperial with a single A level and only three weeks of a maths pre-sessional. (Intercalation from a medical degree.) She did not have a problem but then her sixth form maths teachers had already told her that she was a natural mathematician and that it was a shame that she was not taking double maths. Others really struggled. They were required to get 80% on a maths competency test, and had three attempts. Some, who were right at the top of their medical schools, needed those three attempts.

I agree it is a combination of aptitude and background, @Needmoresleep . Intellectual maturity also counts for a lot.

Your DD’s achievement discussed above is most impressive, but I would wager that their ongoing success with medical studies was part of the reason she and the other medical students were able to cope with this challenge. I’ve also found certain things easier after stretching myself (in seemingly unrelated ways) than at the first attempt

Yes. I never fully understood why people say that those taking maths should not take a gap year for fear they forget, yet Imperial are happily taking medics into the third year of an engineering degree with a single maths A level at A grade. They would not be admitted into the first year of the same degree with so little maths. But as you say, maturity and focus also help. DS' friends at LSE without FM bridged the gap, but it is something that should only be done if you recognise it is going to be tough and are prepared for it.

That said the course was quite selective, so most successful applicants probably had more than the minimum requirements. DD also had the advantage that she had previously attended both UG and intercalation open days for the same course and the Head of Department remembered her as the enthusiast with an electronics A level, undecided between engineering and medicine. (She is now one of the 20,000 medics facing unemployment so she may still end up as an engineer!)

She found the catch up relatively easy, but then I can't remember a time when she struggled with a maths concept at school. (Completely off topic though it might interest you, post Oxford maths degree, her grandmother worked at the National Physics Laboratory on the first computer in Britain, ACE 1, now in the science museum. Maths aptitude seems to be something that runs in the family.) Some of DDs peers really did have to put in the hours over the course of the year to finally get through their maths competency test. Bright, hard working students with strong academic records, but without the same natural aptitude. Tougher but doable.

This post should be pinned to the top of the Topic!

Xenia has answered your question to a large extent. There's far more to it than funding. My own DC attended the grammar which was, at the time, either the least well funded school in the country or the second least well funded. At the same time, due to exceptional leadership, it was the subject of a number of articles along the lines of 'the Eton of the state sector'. The funding formula has changed for the better since then but essentially the success of a school is far, far more than the monies going into its coffers. That said, the grammars start from a high base with all the advantages that Xenia outlines and so despite challenges with funding, it's a nonsense for any parent to deny that their DC hasn't reaped educational advantage by attending a grammar.

My DC could have claimed all sorts of flags and advantages, from postcode (for the older ones) to spLDs and congenital deafness but none ever claimed additional advantage since they'd had it already by virtue of their secondary education (and some flags were misconceived - postcode was broadbrush for sure). The DD who has suffered from hearing loss since birth (and is now a barrister in a top set of chambers in London), said that she wanted to get a place at Oxford 'on merit' or not at all. It did slightly irk the DC at uni to see so many of the private school kids claiming extra time for the slightest of issues, but all one had to do is read these boards to see, depressingly, how it seems to be the most advantaged who always want more.

"It did slightly irk the DC at uni to see so many of the private school kids claiming extra time for the slightest of issues, but all one had to do is read these boards to see, depressingly, how it seems to be the most advantaged who always want more."

In case people start getting worried, it depends on school rather than sector. DD was identified as being very dyslexic when she started obviously struggling aged 7, and was apparently the most dyslexic pupil in her school. The only other person she is aware of who got extra time in sixth form was some way down the autistic spectrum to the extent he needed help getting around the school. It may be different in other schools, but it absolutely not a state private thing. Some private schools are very good at supporting children with SEND and helping them achieve their potential. This is, I think a good thing rather than a bad, and one reason why some parents of SEND children will scrape together every penny to pay school fees. Especially if they do not have the good luck to live near a high performing grammar.

Needmoresleep the state sector has picked up, but it absolutely has been a private state thing, and for far too long.

Not everything can be generalised from the particular of your DD and I'm astonished that you say that about the school in question.

I think I was the first to acknowledge that my DC were fortunate that their nearest school growing up was a high performing grammar. Others are fortunate that their circumstances allow them to buy into even more high performing independent schools which use their know how to advantage their pupils in every way possible. As I said earlier, it would be great if people could acknowledge advantage when they have it instead of denying it and/or wanting ever more.

Indeed at a DS's DPhil graduation the weekend before last the Vice-Chancellor gave the best speech that I've ever heard at an Oxford graduation. She spoke about the huge privilege that it is to have been educated at Oxford but gave a warning that the graduands should 'wear their Oxfordness lightly', in what can be a jealous world. Essentially, just to appreciate their privilege.

My DC could have claimed all sorts of flags and advantages, from postcode (for the older ones) to spLDs and congenital deafness but none ever claimed additional advantage since they'd had it already by virtue of their secondary education

I don't quite understand what is meant by not "claiming additional advantage" with regard to postcode. Surely including your postcode in your UCAS application is not optional and if a university judges it appropriate to give a contextual offer based on this, they will; if not, they won't. As far as I'm aware it's not something a student can refuse to claim or accept. Not sure how many years back your DC went to university so perhaps things have changed since then.

Yes the older ones went a little while ago, hence the caveat. Although the postcode stayed the same for the younger ones who went more recently, the criteria changed so we fell out of the red flag zone.

Three in 10 candidates were awarded 25% extra time in 2023/4, according to Ofqual. Of particular concern is the proportion of pupils getting extra time in private schools – almost 42% compared with 26.5% in state secondaries – which has led to suspicions that some schools are “gaming” the system

This is lifted from an article written in the Guardian in April: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/apr/23/extra-exam-time-why-do-so-many-schoolkids-suddenly-need-it

Needmoresleep, and this is after years of improvement in this area in the state sector. But bottom line is that this is indeed a sector issue, in spite of your claim that it isn't ('In case people start getting worried, it depends on school rather than sector'). That said, it should surprise no-one.

And again, apologies to the OP for introducing what may seem on the face of it to be a side issue. But it does illustrate just how unevenly advantage is spread.

@Auchencar - I remember that piece, and took it with a big pinch of salt. I'm a Guardian reader, but it's a paper that LOVES to write negative pieces about the private school system. (Ironic really, given that the majority of their staff were probably privately educated themselves!)

I think that we need to remember that, rather than 'gaming the system', private schools have more time and resources that can be dedicated to identifying SEN - not to mention a parent body that also have the means to get diagnoses. A good friend of mine whose son is in the state sector had to fight pretty hard to get him a dyslexia diagnosis and pay for lots of private, expensive tests in doing so. He now gets extra time in exams.

Unfortunately, had it been left up to his state school, this diagnosis would have slipped through the cracks. I'm not saying all state schools have poor SEN provision or parents that don't have the means to pay for testing. But it's an example to illustrate why this might be the case.

I think you'd need to look at each uni. Dd didn't get a contextual from Warwick (where she is) but did from Bristol as her school is bottom 40% for A level results.

This is how it works now

It's the Guardian. Obviously it loves to write negative pieces about independent schools peoniesdaisiesroses. The figures are Ofqual's however and they absolutely corroborate what all SLTs know, and have been aware of for years. But yes, the article itself makes the resources point, although it goes beyond that for sure.

A lovely anecdote about DGM. Thank you, @Needmoresleep

Auchincar are you actually the same person as the poster who used to have masses of overachieving children? The one that never seemed to work and spend half her time on the golf course, but looked down on the rest of us wage slaves.

It is far harder for someone with slow processing speeds to get into a grammar school than a private school. Grammar school tests are speed tests and you need to be good at everything they test on. When we were panicking about 11+ a friend who was deputy head of a well known London private school asked me if I thought it possible if DD could go to Oxford. I thought it was. She explained that the top private schools and the grammars would take the kids who were good at everything. Other good private schools would look at kids who had real strengths and not be as worried that they struggled elsewhere. As long as their weaknesses (maths or English) did not hold them back generally. By the time it comes to A level and University entry those weaknesses do not matter as much. DD came about 650th on the wait list for our nearest grammar, which did not stop her starting in the top maths set in a private secondary. Many parents, knowing that with low SATs and obvious weaknesses may mean that their DC might have low targets and be consigned to a middle to low set in a large comprehensive, see a private education as something worth paying for. You may argue that it is buying results and that SEND children should, for the sake of political principle, take their chances in the state system. I would argue that any child who comes out of school with a good education, especially if their SEND, anxiety, autism or whatever, when they might have got lost in the state system, is actually a win.

OP don't worry. A bright, motivated and engaged student will do well. They may not get exactly the university they want, but universities want good students, and employers want good employees. And, I was told recently by an investment banker, that they are becoming increasingly aware that hiring by university name and grades is not enough. They need to dig deeper as rounded people with good interpersonal skills and resilience do better in the longer term. (So increasingly they are widening the range of degree subjects they look at to include things like engineering and medicine.)

Why does she need a contextual offer if she got 7-9 grades at GCSE, a scholarship, and is at a private sixth form?

Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t contextual offers to help kids whose education has been compromised, lacking or disrupted in some way, so their grades don’t reflect their degree potential?

No Needmoresleep, not me. I both work/ worked and certainly never played a single round of golf during my children's school years. My DC have achieved reasonably well but I'm not clear how my own can have 'over' achieved. Their trajectory was pretty much as one would expect, given that they're all bright, and indeed all seemed pretty bright from primary age. So pretty dull tbh. No late blossoming or anything exceptional. I would say that DC who 'over' achieve are far more likely to have pushy mothers and also probably significantly more likely to attend independents. None of my DC have struggled in public exams or at uni which I assume would be the marker of 'over' achievement.

If you aren't happy with an article I linked to with fairly self explanatory official statistics from Ofqual then maybe you could take up your beef with the Guardian's education correspondent who was the author of the article, or with Ofqual itself.

Sort of in response to your last post Needmoresleep: grammars, especially the most selective top grammars, have - or certainly had, until very recently -a particular problem in spotting/ helping students with spLDs. This is a well known phenomenon, and is because high intelligence can disguise a spLD until much later on. I'm leaving aside anxiety, depression etc and speaking about 'pure' spLDs. This proved a real headache for our own grammar and is why so many DC were unable to access help. Even when something was spotted as being awry, the students very frequently scored above any threshold for intervention or help even though their own innate ability to perform was significantly impaired. The system was set up to help lower achievers not those whose objective performance was adequate. Things may have improved in the past few years, but that's how it was - a great source of angst at the school - for the entirely of my own DCs' education.

Sorry. Others were claiming that you used to use the name GoodbyeStranger. I only "knew" her when her children were at University, but certainly then she seemed to play a lot of golf, and not work. My assumption was that she was so revoltingly boastful because she had put all her energy into raising a crop of geniuses, and had presumably bored the pants of anyone close to her in real life. Luckily she seems to have found somewhere else to spend her time.

As we were.

Who are you suggesting writes to the Guardian. Presumably @peoniesdaisiesroses As they don't even know what a woman is, I am not convinced they know anything about education. Their annual, and very odd, University rankings is further evidence.

Many many people would have used grammars or good comprehensives had they been available near us. I do know several (perhaps a dozen) people who rented in other catchments in order to get their children into better schools, and are now boringly superior about the fact they used the state system. Some could easily have afforded private but it did not fit in with their Guardian world view. They did not seem to worry that by using their ability to rent a second property they might be taking a place from a child who would really benefit. In the end, more of these (and the split from NCT etc was about 50/50%) got into Oxbridge, but there were also more car crashes. Bright kids who should have done really well but didn't.

Again all kids will have some advantages and disadvantages. My own view is that a stable supportive family is worth an awful lot. (One off DDs classmates had a dad who had fallen out with Putin. Staggeringly wealthy, but quite possibly dead.) Contextual offers are there to help would be students who have the potential but lack the opportunity. Blanket discrimination based on the type of school you went to is tedious and unhelpful. I met plenty of parents at matches etc who were really stretching to get their kids away from bullying or to get them the support they needed for SEND. Along with plenty of very bright bursary kids.

Just my annual reminder that the vast vast majority of UK children don't have access to grammar schools, whether they want it or not.

But that is what I was saying.

DD was spotted age 7. She read well, in part because we read to her and her older brother at the same time, but had no concept of spelling. The week when she was supposed to learn through, though, thought etc was a nightmare. The school were quick in carrying out a diagnostic check and asking us to get her a full check. Extra time, which she was well within the boundaries for, at 11 made a huge difference. She knew her stuff but could not get it down in time.

Her SATs were awful., We were never told the score but the head, who did not believe in dyslexia, maintained she would not be able to cope in any selective London private school. She was miles away from being considered by a grammar even had there been a less selective one locally. And if she had not been spotted early and simply progressed through the local state system, her low SATs would have meant low targets and with plenty of other kids to worry about (at the time the catchment school was 93%FSM) she would have been allowed to drift along in the middle.

Yes, had she applied she might well have got into Oxbridge. But had no desire to go somewhere which placed so much emphasis on written essays even for STEM. Presumaby your DD would have been irked had she come across DD. DD almost certainly did far better because she went to a private school where she was supported and encouraged. But I see this as a good thing. I see grammar schools not trying to identify bright dyslexics and ensuring they have an equal chance of the education they offer, as a waste of talent.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting that I have an alter ego Needmoresleep but I'm pretty appalled by the level of vitriol. Perhaps this poster has scorned you in real life - but that's not my problem. These are merely educational discussion threads, very minor in the scheme of things.

Absolutlely Piggywaspushed. Nor do the vast, vast majority (including the vast, vast majority at grammars) have access to independents.