Harvard update: international students

[poetryandwine]

The Trump administration has today revoked Harvard’s right to enrol international students. I have no words to describe this outrage.

I am sure Harvard will prevail ultimately. However, loathe as I am to say it, I would not consider accepting Harvard as an international student until this situation is resolved. Implications for enrolment in Autumn 2026 are presently unclear, as the American application cycle is rather early.

I think the courts will ultimately side with Harvard, who acknowledge they failed to protect all students, have done a lot of work and are continuing that work. Balancing the rights of all students is delicate (it went too far in one direction last year)

One hopes Harvard can make an emergency application to the Supreme Court to lift the ban while the case works its way through the courts. However the administration is citing national security, and the SC has tended to give it the leeway to govern as it sees fit.

Also we see elsewhere how slow the administration is to comply with rulings it doesn’t like.

Dystopian hell, indeed

BTW all visitors on J-1 visas, including most international postdocs, are also included in the ban. (Some postdocs who earned PhDs in America are eligible for H-1 visas, but guess who decides?) Postdocs and PG students are the lifeblood of STEM and other research so the impact / never mind that Federal grants to Harvard have essentially been suspended - will be chaotic.

The whole thing is just horrifying. I wish UK universities were better positioned to pick up all the international talent that will now be looking for a new home! Saw an interesting table about where US academics and post-grads were considering - Netherlands and Canada seemed to come out on top, UK was a long way down.

And yes, I didn’t mean to draw a direct equivalence between the mistakes the Ivies have made over the past ten years and what Trump is doing now. They got things wrong and needed a course correction, and in my opinion it’s clear they slipped into a mode of coercive/passively repressive behaviour when it came to some forms of legitimate political speech. It was a bad mistake by sloppy and/or cowardly leaders, possibly turbo-charged by a structure in which highly engaged 20 year olds - who will always tend towards the politically radical, as a group - are your ‘customers’ and your best source of regular income. If college leaders had stood up for the principle of academic freedom five or ten years ago they wouldn’t be in this mess. (Although they might be in another mess altogether…)

If I’m honest, there is a certain schadenfreude in seeing them run around in a panic now after they attempted to ruin the careers and prospects of people who disagreed with them. But a principle is a principle. Trump is using much greater (executive and federal) power to do the same thing at scale, and to punish political opponents. It’s authoritarian madness.

Yes! If I was Harvard a campus in Canada would be what I would be doing. Likely the Canadian Gov would support that too given the current relationship between US and Canada.

@HawaiiWake Rhst doesn’t mean USA based staff with families want to uproot and go abroad though. Or that international students want those locations.

The uk universities can Hoover up these students! Just not at Oxbridge or equivalent. Not enough “space”. We cannot compare the university of Kent (example) with Harvard.

Friends DD in exactly the same position - they've worked so hard for this - gutted for them.

I hope you are right, @TizerorFizz

I saw something this morning to the effect that this has been the last straw for China. The Chinese gov’t may wish to direct their students elsewhere, and one hopes the UK will be an obvious choice.

Our admissions timetable for Overseas works in our favour for the current crop of students, though eg I suspect the COWI institutions are largely full. But they may have contingency plans ……

My DS is going in August to spend the academic year in the Americas…. He’d applied for a mix of unis in the US and one in Canada. He found out a few weeks ago he’d got Canada…. I was relieved then and am double relieved now. He wasn’t going to Harvard but I suspect the regime will attack other educational establishments and their international students too.

I’m still trying to understand if the US government can really do this. It’s singling out one university, I just wonder if this would hold up in a court of law? It’s just awful for everyone involved. I just read about princess Elisabeth of Belgium (first in line to the Belgian throne) who is halfway doing a master’s at Harvard. It will be interesting to see if/how the US govt are actually going to go ahead with this …

Just been reported Harvard are commencing court action. It’s very upsetting for so many students. It’s also upsetting the USA government can do this!

It’s quite possible that legally the US government can’t do this - but, like Boris Johnson and prorogation, they are going to try it anyway. The difference being that the Tories did accept the ruling when it came, and Trump is far less likely to do so.

I came on to start a thread about this latest Trump shit show.

I cannot believe it - it's completely horrifying. DS is due to go to a UK uni in the autumn and has some friends who have places lined up at US Ivy League colleges. I don't think any of them are Harvard - but what happens to kids like your daughter's friend, @Juja ?

Can they go through British clearing? I'm not even sure about the US application process - do they have insurance places on UCAS they can take up?

So glad Harvard are fighting, but like @SheilaFentiman I worry that the day is coming when Trump refuses to accept an unfavourable judgment

These students will be welcomed with open arms wherever we have places. The question is whether the peer institutions have any places for them, either here or in America? America is also tricky because relatively few unis offer financial aid to Overseas students as generous as Harvard’s

A ban on international students has actually not yet been enforced, it has only been announced as new policy, so it doesn't yet need lifting because there is nothing to lift. What needs to happen is the proposal is simply overturned, which I have no doubt will happen.

The ‘welcomed with open arms’ seems trite, OP. to get a harvard place and funding is hugely competitive, with a lot of requirements, process etc. Other USA or global top quality HE institutions are unlikely to be willing/able to match that and offer current or selected Harvard students similar places and funding quickly and fairly (for other candidates).

Of course if may be overturned or never enforced, but who would risk starting their studies in the US now when it’s easier to replan rather than putting in time and effort and having to leave

As an American, I can only offer abject apologies for this absolute insane shit show.

Yes, but the problem is that their approach to visa revocation is capricious, at best. If I was in the process of applying or my child was applying from abroad, I would absolutely not go to the US at this point. This case, which is clearly a test on the administration's part - they knew Harvard would fight (can well afford it) and take it to court. They want to know whether the courts are going to check this power grab or let them get away with it. And if they do check it, will the administration obey? And even if they do, will they continue to find other ways to continue to hobble universities and/or revoke visas on a whim?

In the long run, this is going to be much more destructive to the US than to any other country. Who wants to trust their future to us now?

edited because seem incapable of clear expression of thoughts today

@poetryandwine I agree that night well happen and of course USA judges are political appointments.

@ghostedtulip My Dd applied for a USA university and 5 via UCAS. I would hope most going to Harvard have done the same. They might have rejected all 5 by now though and hopefully UCAS can maybe help?

Yes, they most likely will have as US universities generally do their acceptances in March (or earlier in some cases) and the acceptances are unconditional, so not riding on final scores as they do here.

I wish UK universities were better positioned to pick up all the international talent that will now be looking for a new home! Saw an interesting table about where US academics and post-grads were considering - Netherlands and Canada seemed to come out on top, UK was a long way down.

Yes, this is a HUGE missed opportunity for UK research.

But the current government is building on the previous government's disregard for university research as a driver of growth.

Imagine the growth we'd get if this government had a coherent policy & 10 million pounds to bring the best American research labs to the UK?

I agree it's a great opportunity. There was an article in the FT the other day about the UK and Europe making moves in that direction, so hopefully they'll continue. It could be such an opportunity to revitalise areas outside of London - attract real talent to the North, for example, and build top quality facilities

@4444223e - how is this being reported on in the States? Not on Fox, of course, but more moderate media.

From my UK- perspective, it’s like there’s a massive dumpster fire full of preposterous illegitimate behaviour lit by Trump every other week and it’s kinda like a “oh whelp!” reaction? So, I can’t tell if it’s just our media or if your average educated US resident is despairing.

To expand, the whole Zelenskyy “why aren’t you wearing a suit?” thing: that was laughable to us, super embarrassing but is the emperor’s new clothes just at his crony level or is it also in your “middle of society” US resident level too? And I don’t mean the MAGA lot, I mean generally (even if people don’t admit to it)