DD doesn't have a uni Term 3

[Globules]

Just that really.

She chose modules this year, her first year, that all completed in terms 1 & 2.

She has no lectures and no assignments, nothing, until October 2025.

£9250 academic fees, plus 39 week let fees.

Surely this can't be considered ok?!

One of the huge issues facing universities is insufficient money. Knowing how a university works is not necessary to make a comment. This is not a forum for experts only. It’s MN in case you have forgotten. However doing the same thing and expecting change and improvements is not logical.

One of the mistakes institutions make is not reacting to situations quickly enough. The universities are like the proverbial oil tanker. Slow to turn. Ponderous. Unable to react and take swift action. Therefore decisions about what should be curtailed and offered needs to be made early enough for students to get the quality of degree they deserve.

Employers also matter. They need to trust the system of graduate production. There are many instances where this isn’t the case and we also have an over production of grads because we don’t match grads to work available - even for the nhs. Universities need to make changes or they will wither on the vine.

Making robust decisions to ensure quality and confidence in the sector are needed urgently. Navel gazing and rubbishing the views of others is one reason why some universities are failing their customers. No private company could continue like this. The experts in HE are not doing a great job right now. Also shooting and belittling the messenger is always the easy cop out. Most lecturers have never run a business. If they had, they would have different views other than me me me.

One of the huge issues facing universities is insufficient money. Knowing how a university works is not necessary to make a comment. This is not a forum for experts only. It’s MN in case you have forgotten. However doing the same thing and expecting change and improvements is not logical.

You see, this just proves my point.
Your assumption that universities are 'just doing the same thing' is incorrect.

Of course anyone can comment but the irony is YOU position yourself as a expert and refuse to listen to anyone with a different viewpoint to you. I have seen you on other threads and I don't think I've ever seen you acknowledge that someone working at a university might have a better insight. You think you are right and that's that.

One of the mistakes institutions make is not reacting to situations quickly enough. The universities are like the proverbial oil tanker. Slow to turn. Ponderous. Unable to react and take swift action. Therefore decisions about what should be curtailed and offered needs to be made early enough for students to get the quality of degree they deserve.

Again, this just shows a lack of understanding. If a degree doesn't recruit it gets shut down. But this isn't instantaneous, if you are closing a three year degree then you will need to 'teach out' those students so of course it takes time.

Employers also matter. They need to trust the system of graduate production. There are many instances where this isn’t the case and we also have an over production of grads because we don’t match grads to work available - even for the nhs.
Employers do matter. The UK HE system doesn't work like a job matching system. Three quarters of graduate employers look for skills not subject studied.

Universities need to make changes or they will wither on the vine.

The UK HE system is world class. Just woefully underfunded.

Making robust decisions to ensure quality and confidence in the sector are needed urgently.

Do you realise that the vast majority of decisions relating to HE are taken out of our hands?

Navel gazing and rubbishing the views of others is one reason why some universities are failing their customers.
Who the fuck is navel gazing at the moment? Honestly, you have such a biased view of academics that I could tell you we'd solved world peace and you' still be a dick about it.
The reason I rubbish your views is because you consistently post sweeping assumptions which are incorrect. Your anti - HE bias shines through.

No private company could continue like this.
A private company would have had the freedom to raise the cost of their product in line with inflation.

The experts in HE are not doing a great job right now.

Another sweeping generalisation...

Also shooting and belittling the messenger is always the easy cop out.
Who made you the voice of HE? You are consistently rude to academics yet we're supposed to bow down to your knowledge about a sector you've never worked in? Madness.

Most lecturers have never run a business. If they had, they would have different views other than me me me.

This again shows that you don't even read what university staff say to you. You assume we're all 'me, me, me' when the vast majority of us are killing ourselves to do the best for our students.

@HighLadyofTheNightCourt totally agree. 👏

This isn’t a fair comment. You’d need to be a detective to pick up all of the nuances of the domestics around courses. Schools haven’t a clue, when they’re advising. Five months off is too much. One of mine had less, because they only had a fortnight after Easter. Universities must offer better value for money.

this isn’t a fair comment. You’d need to be a detective to pick up all of the nuances of the domestics around courses. Schools haven’t a clue, when they’re advising. Five months off is too much. One of mine had less, because they only had a fortnight after Easter. Universities must offer better value for money.

It isn't a schools responsibility to give this information to a student.

A student is paying to be taught a specific set of modules which make up a particular qualification. It is a student's responsibility to understand how those modules will be taught and when. It shouldn't come as a surprise that teaching takes place over two terms.

As for value for money, considering the current fee level doesn't cover the cost of running a UG degree, I would say they are getting very good value for money. Had fees risen in line with inflation then they would be paying around £15k per year.

Employers want independence from students, they do not want to be spoon feeding their new employees nor do they want complaints at every turn. They want self starters who have taken the initiative to make the most of their university education, and do things on their own.
Having a lot of non-contact time built in is giving employers exactly what they want.

Indeed. There will be numerous things taking place that students can get involved in which gives them opportunities to develop skills and experiences. All things that are valued by employers.

And academic staff will be marking, dealing with re-sits/refers and preparing for exam boards.

Well, I suppose we could teach May-June. Then mark all July (don't know how I'd fit in the prep & work for the 3 conferences I generally attend in July) and we could graduate the students in August. Then when would academics be able to take holiday? Term starts again in September ...

In my department most of us DO teach May - June.
We have some accelerated degrees and our postgraduate taught provision is taught over 12 months. We also have a January and May starts on a number of PG courses.
I've not taken my full annual leave allocation in over 5 years.

In fact, we teach May - July...

It's called reading for a degree for a reason. You DD should be reading around her subject and researching for next year.

I used to also use this time to apply to charities and grant making trusts for funding.

Jus out of curiosity - do we know how point A has been worked out? It keeps being stated but it would be nice to know how the actual cost is worked out. Was it an independent body or the universities themselves?

I'm not disputing it but understand stats can be worked out in many different ways and it can't be as easy a thing to work out as a school because there are more income streams than just fees and more beneficiaries than just undergraduate students.

@HighLadyofTheNightCourt I do not position myself as an expert at all. I regularly take flak from posters like you who want the world to know how expert you are. And yet - you preside over failing institutions and the sector has only had a period of huge expansion.

I do agree students should be self starters but unfortunately employers don’t like to see poor English and lack of basic knowledge when it’s a knowledge based degree. The degrees are not good enough from some universities. Clearly a well qualified, articulate and self reliant dc will do well. Maybe universities should research into why others don’t do as well and don’t get jobs. Obviously no fault of the university that just has them as a statistic.

@fortyfifty If fees had risen with inflation then £9k would have been increased to £15k. The £9k fee was set by the government back in 2011 and came into force in 2012.

As it stands, universities haven't been able to increase these fees to cover the increase in costs. The small increase in fees which comes into play in September will be completely wiped out by the increase in NI contributions.

We have had to find other income streams to supplement static home UG fees. This has primarily been international students but that income stream was hit by covid and unfavourable government policy.

Of course university finances are complicated but we are in a position where we are trying to deliver our main 'product' in 2025 at 2012 prices.

I do not position myself as an expert at all. I regularly take flak from posters like you who want the world to know how expert you are.

Are those of us working in HE not allowed to call ourselves experts?

And yet - you preside over failing institutions and the sector has only had a period of huge expansion.

Our institutions are not failing. The UK HE system is WORLD LEADING. The sector is collapsing due to inadequate funding. There is a difference.

I do agree students should be self starters but unfortunately employers don’t like to see poor English and lack of basic knowledge when it’s a knowledge based degree. The degrees are not good enough from some universities. Clearly a well qualified, articulate and self reliant dc will do well. Maybe universities should research into why others don’t do as well and don’t get jobs. Obviously no fault of the university that just has them as a statistic.

Do you really think we don't look at this? Jesus Christ...

You continue to be blinded by your biases about HE. You've decided we're incompetent, lazy, selfish, navel gazing ...and all the other insults you throw at us. You assume we don't care.

Your assumptions are ignorant and insulting. Why don't you ask us what we are doing to support our students and their future employability rather than assuming we do nothing and don't care.

Universities have to submit TRAC returns -
'The Transparent Approach to Costing (TRAC) is an activity-based costing system adapted to academic culture which provides information to help higher education providers understand the costs of their activities (teaching, research and other activities).'

TRAC data - Office for Students

Most of my time in May and June is taken up with those students who need additional help or support in their English/basic knowledge. But as the PPs have said parents students aren't paying for student support, staff welfare or indeed ANYTHING that isn't direct face to face teaching.

Jus out of curiosity - do we know how point A has been worked out? It keeps being stated but it would be nice to know how the actual cost is worked out. Was it an independent body or the universities themselves?

@fortyfifty I suspect that the original £9k fee was set in relation to the Government funding per FTE student paid in the year preceding the point at which government funding for undergraduates was withdrawn.

At that point, I was teaching in what was known as a Band B subject (half-laboratory) so we had an uplift on the standard FTE funding - I think we got around £8.5k per FTE (it's a while since I've had to deal with my department's accounts!). So the £9k fee only just covered the provision we were already making. Since then, the government push to commercialise universities (which are charities, NOT businesses!), has put pressure on universities to offer more for students, although universities weren't being paid more.

Medicine and similarly full laboratory subjects (Band C iirc) were already behind the eight ball with the £9k fee, so received a government top up. At the point of withdrawal of government funding, I think the calculation was that Med students cost about £15k and Engineering undergrads about £12k.

The point is, that fee has hardly changed, while all costs have gone up - it's not just inflation - it's the demands by students (and their parents!) for extra services etc put to us as "Now we're paying."

But they've never paid quite enough ... the shortfall was there from the beginning.

But they've never paid quite enough ... the shortfall was there from the beginning.

And the problem was this was never communicated effectively.
In 2012 I used to deliver a fair few student finance talks in schools. I had so many angry parents shouting at me like it was my decision!

It wasn't a university decision either!

I think the Cameron government and austerity doomed the financial logic of "full" tuition fees from the start - I suspect that a group of VCs went to the DoE to say - "Look, we're seriously underfunded". To be told that the answer was the Browne report, and that if you want more money, taxpayers will stop funding you, and you can charge the students the costs of their tuition, in a free market.

There are some arguments in favour of that, if it had been done properly: why should the children & their parents who don't go to university pay for those who do? We know, for example, that educational advantage & opportunity map on to socio-economic opportunity. Why should poor families subsidise rich families?

But the marketisation of fees was half-hearted. We are controlled by the government - which doesn't pay for the universities - about the level of fees we can charge.

It's a mess, and it's a mess which is of the Tory/LibDem coalition's making, not the universities.

It wasn't a university decision either! .

Indeed! Yet here we have people telling us we're incompetent and we're running unsuccessful businesses. How many businesses do you know who have zero control over how much they charge for their main product?

I know!

(setting aside the fact that universities are charities, not businesses, and we're not setting out to make a profit. Simply cover costs).

Excellent point!

I thought when fees were introduced that the cost per student was calculated around £6000, but all universities went ahead and charged the capped amount of £9000?

Where is the £15000 in today's money coming from. Putting 2012 to 2025 in an inflation calculator is not giving me close to that amount. £6000 from 2012 to 2025 is less than £9000. £9000 from 2012-2025 gives me appx £12000. But perhaps the calculator is using a different measure of inflation.

I'm asking because I keep seeing this £15000 fees mentioned and it is being repeated by many. £15000 per year is a shocking amount to be casually thrown about and expect our young people to take as loans. Do you have children, or teenagers of university age and would you be happy with them paying that?

It's internationally quite cheap - especially in relation to US fees. We charge international students more than that. UK HE is internationally excellent, and other nations are prepared to pay for it. Funny how UK parents get cranky at the thought.