Law choices

[Laundryandtoil]

Could someone who knows anything about law please advise whether my Y12 daughter is choosing realistic unis? Her choices are:

1. Cambridge - Downing, Magdalene or Selwin (not sure which)
2. Durham
3. Bristol
4. Exeter
5. Nottingham

She says she needs to sit an exam for the first three. She is likely to be predicted all A stars but reckons she will end up with A star, A star or A and A as actual results.

I would be very grateful as I don’t feel able to advise although she will run her choices past school (state grammar). Thank you MN

All reasonable choices.
No London Unis?
Barrister or Solicitor route, London or regional as Oxbridge seems to be a bigger factor in London Barristers.

Also, not sure I’d entertain Oxbridge, possibly Durham and possibly Bristol if actuals are likely to be only one A Star.
Puts them, averagely, lower down and the req is usually to get a 2:1.

Thanks you @stubiff for replying. She is thinking Barrister in London ultimately

I would put a slightly more achievable university in there too if she might be predicted A star AA (not quite sure whether that is what you meant). If she isn’t predicted three A stars then Cambridge isn’t likely.

All great choices for law. Assume your dc is actively avoiding London for cost or uni experience reasons.
Yes top 3 need additional exam - lnat. Register for it early August and sit early year 13 (needs to be sat before they apply to Oxbridge) Revise using books off Amazon and/or Arbitio. It’s multiple choice and essay. Results only released for multiple choice mid Feb. Different universities weight differently eg Durham look more at essay than some.
Being predicted A doesn’t mean high lnat pass. Average this year was 21/42 - most sitting will be A /A students it’s a tough exam.
Important to have none lnat happy with as if DC hasn’t scored highly then it’s 3/5 choices off table. My dc’s state grammar were useless re lnat - don’t rely on school. The student room law forum good for lnat uni advice.
Do go to open days some good on paper for law my dc disliked.
Don’t assume grades = offer. Nottingham is extremely oversubscribed this year seen several posts of kids with the the grades being offered criminology instead. Exeter is a very large intake so usually a good chance of offer.
If bar aim then there’s more chance of getting pupillage with a first so it’s important to choose somewhere that’s a good fit and dc will thrive academically.
(I’m a solicitor 25 years pqe with a dc yr1 law. We visited many law open and offer days recently)

@Laundryandtoil Then you want Tizer to advise as their DD did a language at Durham, I think, and is a barrister in London.

Exeter and Nottingham are usually only AAA.

Lots of barristers inc Tizers daughter have a none law first degree then a postgraduate law conversion think it’s around 50% Not sure if that’s something your dc has considered.

Bold part should be A / Astar

@Laundryandtoil Hi. DD is indeed a barrister. MFL degree from Bristol and then a conversion course.

The universities on the list are all good choices. I would suggest she does the most academic degree possible. Obviously law fits this but don’t accept criminology, so think carefully about subject. A first is very very useful but not in any old subject.

The London bar is around 40% Oxbridge and, her school really should advise on whether she’s a good candidate for one of those two universities. To get a place at Oxbridge she not only needs a great LNAT score, she will need to be selected for interview as well and then ace that. The offer rate at Oxford is around 1:9 I think. DD really has to want this because it’s draining and can end in disappointment. It’s best seen as one choice and not necessarily something that defines you if you don’t get in.

It’s also worth remembering that Durham and Bristol especially are no back numbers as they use LNAT too. Obviously non LNAT options then become popular choices as your DD has identified as well as other posters.

My DD was always keen on being a barrister. One thing to work on is confidence. Believe in yourself. Then make sure your DD speaks well, thinks quickly, has a good memory and has great critical thinking skills. Written advocacy and how you express yourself matters. It’s also a career where you are usually self employed and earnings at the criminal bar aren’t great at the start.

I have no doubt some areas of law are far more difficult to access than others. DD does family. She’s absolutely at home with that. Some far more academic people prefer other branches of law where you might need business acumen and have different skills. Always aim for the possible and do not waste time aiming for something that’s not suitable for DDs skill set because the competition can be stellar. That is not to say she’s not stellar of course!

The Inns of Court have info on becoming a barrister and although she obviously needs her university place first, reading up on the process is always a good start. The Bar Standard Board has info too as will university.

Some excellent thoughts and experiences so far - thank you. Just to be clear, she will be predicted 3 A-stars and is confident that she can get A-star, A-star, A in actual A-levels

I think Oxbridge acceptance stats are 1 in 12 for law. Cambridge interview a lot more than Oxford.
The lnat is key. There’s some past papers on lnat website too. It’s a matter of practice for multiple choice to get speed and scores up. They get a choice of essay, if they are doing an essay subject now that can be useful.

I wouldn’t bother entertaining Oxbridge if she can’t get three A*’s. That’s the bare minimum and then it’s acing the LNAT and the interview. It’s a dreadfully arduous process that even excellent students are disappointed in and a lot of time wasted.

Same with Durham and Bristol. She’s going to have to up her game on results realistically.

OP all those choices are good, as your DD will know.

The will she won't she actually get three A* is irrelevant for Oxbridge (let alone the other three choices). As is the choice of Cambridge college, although Downing has for a long time had a strong reputation for Law.

My own DD was state grammar/ Oxford/ London barrister. Not family or crime - but I don't want to be too specific. She's also teaching at Oxford atm - a fair number of those at the more academic end of the Bar are asked to teach.

If your DD is likely to be predicted three A* then there's no need for an 'insurance' choice unless your DD is incredibly cautious.

@Auchencar As few universities are LNAT: most applicants do put down 5 LNAT choices. You tend to hedge your bets.

@Cakeandusername I didn’t check the stats but I know it’s a hard course to get on.

None of DDs barrister friends teach. They tend to like building up their practice areas.

TizerorFizz I'm not clear what your first paragraph means.

As far as being asked to teach goes, it's not either teaching or practice as alternatives. I'm not sure that those asked to teach would do it if it compromised their practice. That would make no sense, since those same barristers could probably have chosen to go for an academic career if they preferred - but they didn't. It's just another interesting thing to do. Again, it doesn't prove much that your own DD's friends don't do any teaching. I'm not sure what you think it does mean tbh.

Anyhow, OP asked about uni choices: her DD's choices are very sound.

(But actually, just thinking about it while clearing up the kitchen after a very long evening, how can you possibly know that not one of your DD's friends do any university teaching? Do you maintain a spreadsheet? :))

A few thoughts from me (barrister, KC, pupillage committee chair):

Those are all good choices of university. We have noticed a wave of excellent pupillage candidates coming from Exeter law degrees recently, and their applications have been supported by really insightful references from tutors who clearly have got to know them well. Oxbridge tutors have long been excellent at writing references, because the tutorial/supervision systems guarantee that they know their students and their work very well, but elsewhere this is not always the case.

Downing College, Cambridge has long had an excellent reputation for Law, with some very well-known academics who have also taught on the Bar course in London. Some of those big names are now retired, but Downing is likely to be a particularly competitive option. Emmanuel is another one to consider. But bear in mind that Cambridge does operate a pool, so all is not lost (by any means) if you happen to apply to a heavily oversubscribed college in your subject.

If your DD wants pupillage at the Bar, especially in civil/commercial chambers, she must work very hard for her degree because the competition is incredibly tough. These days there are often years when nobody without a First gets through to our interview stage (in my chambers), which means we are having to say no to lots of really good people without even meeting them.

Best of luck to her going forward.

@Auchencar DD talks about her “bar school” friends, Inn friends and chambers friends. She’s never mentioned any of them teaching. I think when you are below 10 years call it would divert you from building your practice. No one wants to earn less either. I can see for some there might be an attraction. DDs friends are a mix of GDL and law degrees but teaching doesn’t seem to be of interest to anyone.

@Auchencar
Disagree that actuals won’t matter. Originally advertised as AStar A A, so would have a big impact, averagely, at the top unis on degree outcome.

I know a lot of people say go to the best you can get into, but…

TizerorFizz in the case of my DD she was asked to deliver a certain module, because I assume it's known that she's good in that area. I'm not sure it's enormously time consuming in the overall scheme of things. She's enjoying it. She likes going back to Oxford anyhow. It's not anything to get dogmatic about and I have to say I'm not quite clear how you can judge whether it would 'divert' in the manner suggested. Perhaps you just mean that these young people work hard so how can they fit more in?

stubiff I suppose I'm really just being superficial here: once you have your offer in the bag, it's not going to exceed AstarAA, except for possibly at Cambridge if you're considered borderline. OP has said her DD will be predicted three and perhaps she's being modest about achieving two rather than three or perhaps realistic about how easy it is on any given paper to drop a few marks for any number of reasons. I agree that if a student is working flat out to be at Astar AA level then they probably aren't in the game for Oxford or Cambridge and probably not for the London Bar either - although of course there's a huge amount of room for growth at uni. But yes - I was talking in purely practical terms. It's not uncommon for students with offers from Oxford in particular to relax a bit in the run up to A levels given that the offers are generally (not in all subjects but generally) pitched at well below what the student is capable of achieving. That doesn't apply to perfectionists, obviously!

@Auchencar Yes. That is what I mean. They don’t seem to have time for a side hustle. However DD does a bit for her Inn so I guess that’s similar.

I assume that’s a typo but I’d reiterate not to put all Lnat. The plan here to put 3 Lnat and 2 none Lnat is excellent advice.
My dc went through Lnat in 2023 and having been on various forums for a few years, Lnat doesn’t always translate that A* students ace it. A good but not stellar Lnat performance on day can take the 3 Lnat universities off the cards so you do need solid none lnat choices too.

No-one has suggested all LNAT. My point was that strong applicants such as the OP's DD don't need to have a 'safe' choice. They can afford to go for five excellent unis and they'll be bound to get at least one of those five. Schools give very 'safe' advice for sensible reasons of their own but strong applicants who are going for competitive careers need to be bolder than that because the university experience will matter down the line. Durham isn't super predictable in who it does or doesn't offer to but it's an excellent faculty so worth putting it in.