Law choices

[Laundryandtoil]

Could someone who knows anything about law please advise whether my Y12 daughter is choosing realistic unis? Her choices are:

1. Cambridge - Downing, Magdalene or Selwin (not sure which)
2. Durham
3. Bristol
4. Exeter
5. Nottingham

She says she needs to sit an exam for the first three. She is likely to be predicted all A stars but reckons she will end up with A star, A star or A and A as actual results.

I would be very grateful as I don’t feel able to advise although she will run her choices past school (state grammar). Thank you MN

Yes absolutely agree poetryandwine. My post was about the general knee jerk reaction we so often see on these threads, not a response to your post about Oxford and Cambridge which is much more thoughtful than so many posts are.

Really not seeing how my post is ‘anti aspirational’
This is a 16 or 17 year old dc about to start going to uni open days. Her and her mum very much at beginning of process.
I confirmed the choices listed were great choices for law.
The lnat info was what I learned after lots of research when my dd sat it in 2023. Pass rate, format, weighted differently by different universities, prep materials, when to register, split between lnat/none, student room law forum for the best info on lnat universities. Don’t assume school will help. That info would have been a godsend to us when dd was this stage yr12.
I make no bones explaining how competitive lnat is. Not to dissuade from sitting but to ensure parents understand, I’ve seen parents in disbelief that their A child hasn’t aced it. Personally know a hardworking A girl who did poorly (her mum has a law degree so presumably the girl prepped)
I’m on another parent uni group. Post recently from a mum where daughter A* and aiming for bar. Rejected by 3 lnat choices (Oxford, kings, Durham) still waiting on one. Nottingham offer on table but for some reason dc disliked it. Her mum had no concept how competitive it was.
If you are going down lnat route you need to be sure your none lnat choices are good and you’d be happy there - Warwick, Exeter, Nottingham all excellent aspirational law choices.
I did mention the conversion as again I know lots aren’t aware of this route or how popular it is with barristers.
Op asked for responses from someone who knows about law. I’m a solicitor who recruits (got 3 in my team at various stages of qualifying) I also instruct barristers and go on training courses run by bar - I look at credentials of barristers. Often none law degree, fwiw last newly called I used was 1st in English Lit from Durham with impressive Drama extra curricular. My dc is yr 1 law at an lnat university. We visited numerous open and offer days in last couple of years.

I was same as @Auchencar’s daughter in that I was dead set on solicitor from 15. Did work experience at a high street solicitor and knew 100% for me. Went in to study law not history I’d been planning. Went straight through and qualified at 24. I’m unusual though and most aren’t as clear from such a young age.
My sibling had no real desire to go into law but ending up training at magic circle after Oxbridge.

It’s also clear your dc’s school were switched on with law @Auchencar entering a team into mooting yr9 and having several students in one year ending up with successful law careers.
My dc was at a large state grammar around 300 students in a year. There was zero support re law entry at university. Two dc in the year sat lnat. I had to explain what it was to her personal tutor when booking dd out for morning of test. They mentioned possibility of entering a yr12 mooting competition for state schools and it never got off ground as no teacher available. (Medicine in contrast has a medicine co ordinator, lunchtime club, info re ucat etc)
Relying on the school for info would have been a disaster. OP’s state grammar may of course be better.

Good list (writing as a solicitor mother with 4 solicitor children - the last 2 qualified last year) and they have cousins studying law so I have a fair bit of recent experience. 3 went to Bristol and 1 to Nottingham (all on the suggested list for the first post here). Mine did not want to bother trying Oxbridge as too much effort and they thought they would not get in (laughing as I type - obviously I would have supported them had they wanted to do so and my siblings both went to Oxbridge (I didn't try)).

3 of mine rejected Durham offers for Bristol just because it is a bit nearer us in London (even though I am from the NE so would have been happy with Durham too for them). Durham is probably better than Bristol slightly.

The girl here does not need to choose yet if she wants to be a barrister or solicitor and indeed 50% of solicitors do not do law as a first degree and convert later although for many that comes with financial downsides. If she doesn't do law as her first degree then she won't have to do the LNAT. However I loved my law degree and encourage people to read law first if they want to do so.

I work with lots of barristers. if you look on a barristers' chambers web site for the pupils and those just called to the bar you can have a look at where they studied and their exam results etc and that is worth doing. I think about 83% of English lawyers are solicitors rather than barristers. She should look carefully at what kind of career she wants and should be aware that both careers are very competitive even for people with top grades.

She should also use her years studying as a chance to do other law related things and apply for mini pupillages etc - all the deadlines are on barristers' websites (and the same for solicitor paid vacation schemes from which many trainees are recruited years in advance - and there are also some first year schemes),

There are lots of lawyers on mumsnet and if you have any questions we would all be happy to help.

Haha my DS can identify with your sibling Cakeandusername. He didn't have any intention of going into law at all. Read History at Oxford, never did a vac scheme or pursued any legal extra curriculars then decided to apply (Magic Circle only) and got offers from all those he applied to, was taken on by his first choice department as an Associate. Enjoys it enormously now too (just as well).

Ignore the bolding it should say A star and A star.

Yes I'm acutely aware that school experience varies dramatically even within the grammar sector Cakeandusername. Our school happened to have one particular teacher who enjoyed the whole thing about getting a team together and trained up. The kids were really enthusiastic too. Three of my DD's in different year groups won the national competition as 'lawyers' - this teacher was really excellent. Unfortunately the teacher has since retired and no-one else wanted to take it on/ too time consuming. A real shame. The youngest DD to win hasn't actually opted for law (at the moment at least) although if anyone was ever made for a career at the Bar it's her (double first from Oxford and extraordinarily good at anything linguistic). Still, her choice - and she's easily young enough to change her mind.

@Auchencar My DD mentored dc in her old school for the mooting competition. They didn’t win but she enjoyed it.

The organisation has stopped the separate independent school competition Tizer:

https://smartlaw.org.uk/mock-trials/

But yes, definitely good fun. Especially since being so rural, our students often had to take Friday afternoon off to travel to whichever court the regional and final heats were taking place in. Time off school is always a bonus :) The youngest DD's team win was at the Royal Courts of Justice in one of the original court rooms which was quite an august setting for the Y9s.

https://www.youngcitizens.org/programmes/mock-trials/
This was the one dd was going to do but they didn’t go ahead due to no teacher availability.

Sorry just seen it’s same one @Auchencar posted just a different link.

@Auchencar That’s a shame. Not all independent school dc are confident and lots of dc at the less well known schools don’t get any advice at all. DD didn’t and that’s why she went back. However I would say her school had amazing drama but no law advice!

That's a big shame Cakeandusername, it's a really good initiative. The thing about teacher availability is key. Our school only did so well year on year because this one History teacher made it her thing. She loved doing this as her extra curricular contribution to the school and was fiercely competitive. Any student given a leading role who didn't turn up to after school practices was out - one strike! And since her retirement none of the younger teachers were prepared to take it on - it's a huge time commitment including the actual competitions which take up an entire Saturday for each round. I was often asked if I'd go as an additional adult as I was DBS checked so over the years I watched multiple rounds - fun for me too. Gosh the highs and the lows! Our team was absolutely sure that Henrietta Barnett were going to beat us at the RCJ and when they were announced as also rans you'd have thought our team had just won the FA Cup final - our English teacher (also Ho6 and a fabulous teacher of long standing) went wild😂

Ok - aware I'm guilty of going off piste so a segue back to the OP: your DD would do very well to enter mooting competitions at uni. My own DD did several at Oxford where they're fortunate to have a fair number of sponsored moots (Cambridge will be the same and probably the other unis on her list too). Getting at least to the finals even short of winning is extremely helpful with applications for scholarships etc for the Bar. That's a drawback for those not reading Law at uni. It's not an absolute rule that non lawyers can't enter moots but those reading Law have a huge advantage, for obvious reasons.

@Auchencar As DD got a big scholarship from her Inn and other non law grads did too, mooting is a moot point. It’s not vital if other attributes make up for not doing one. People who are good at advocacy seem to be able to learn how to do it successfully. Having said that, do the competitions if you can.

I expect that if there's ample opportunity to moot, as there definitely will be if this DD gets into Cambridge to read Law, then those sitting on the interview panels for scholarships will expect her to have participated unless there's a good reason not to have done so (another time consuming high level extra curricular perhaps). DD also got a number of scholarships including a major one and was asked about at least one of the more notable moots at interview. In the present case, the DD is intending to read Law preferably at Cambridge, so my advice was based on those two relevant things.

I follow DD’s university mooting society on instagram and it is clearly stated it’s open to students of any discipline. Op’s dd is intending to study law but I’d imagine most universities are similar and perhaps enjoying mooting would lead to a yp considering a law conversion. They also run how to act in a moot sessions etc.

With a complex case as the subject of the mooting competition, then pretty hard for anyone other than someone reading Law to get their head around it.

Yes not sure if anyone does but thought it was interesting they explicitly stated competitions were open to all years/all disciplines. They seem to run lots of training sessions and opportunities to watch.

Bristol have academic moots for law students and moots open to everyone.

We have a non-law relative in the wider family at OIxbridgee who has done a moot. I did an LLB elsewhere and I did do mooting (although ended up a solicitor not a barrister) and in my view it would have been very hard to do it if not reading law, So I was quite surprised non law students can do moots, but it seems they are allowed to do so.

..Oxbridge...

I think that it's going to be hard to get selected for a team for a high profile sponsored moot if not reading Law, but in theory moots seem generally to be open. In practise, less sure. But certainly very impressive if a non lawyer can get a sufficient grasp of case law etc to convincingly argue a tricky point.

@Auchencar I imagine that’s why Bristol split them. It gives non law degree people a chance to have a go but not go up against law students. I think this has been a fairly recent development but it seems helpful.