Philosophy &Theology at Nottingham v PPE at ‘lower’ uni

[crazycrofter]

Ds has grades in hand and is holding offers for PPE from Essex, Swansea and UEA and Politics and Economics from Leicester. Philosophy is his favourite subject so he’s unlikely to choose Leicester, unless it’s on the basis of proximity to home and cheap living costs.

He’s ambitious and really wants to prove himself after not putting the effort in at sixth form. Having done some research, it looks likely that Nottingham might be in clearing for Philosophy and Theology at his grades. Would it be worth him trading up if this happens (given it also ticks some other boxes - nearer to home, his sister is there and he’s familiar with the uni/city). He is very interested in Theology too. But he chose PPE partly because he thought the Economics element would help with employability.

I took philosophy at uni and I would say (sorrry) it was a waste of three years. Maybe the way it is taught has changed but for me it was a lot of DWM and their very tedious writings. It was many years ago tho.

Hard disagree. I took it and loved it. What's wrong with studying Hume and Ayer and Kant? You study them, then you study current Philosophy, and you apply what you learned from both. History of Philosophy should only be a part of it. Philosophy is something you DO, not just something you study.

OP there's a strong chance that once he's actually in, it'll be pretty easy to dump the Theology if he wants to after first year and go single honours. Based on how you describe him I'd go Philosophy and Theology all the way personally.

I found Hume impossible to read and get any kind of handle on. Ditto Kant. I’m not saying mine is the only viewpoint.

Tho phi was definitely not something you DID (how?) at uni of Bristol in the late 1980s. You studied writers and wrote about what they said. That’s fine but I would have enjoyed Eng lit or French more. My bad tho as it was my own choice, Tbf to me, I did say I hope it has changed. I’m just saying check it is what you think and want. As unless it has changed a lot, it’s not sitting discussing the meaning of life (as some think - not saying your son does @crazycrofter )

I'm genuinely glad you enjoyed it @Andreser. I mean I did well at it, just looking back I wish I had done something else instead.

PPE could be possible in clearing with BBC (no guarantees, but based on previous years). Places to look are the ones that had most spaces in clearing last year - Lancaster, Glasgow and Southampton usually have lots of clearing vacancies. Look for BA rather than BSc, given your son doesn't have A Level maths

Don’t know much about the courses at Essex but another potential issue there is accommodation costs, rental prices in Colchester are crazy at the moment. The University has a lot of accommodation on campus though.
DS lives in Nottingham and like PP said, there is a lot of student accommodation, even though the City Council have tightened up on houses being converted to HMOs for student accommodation.

Thanks @Skule I’d clocked that Lancaster might be possible in clearing. I’m not sure Southampton have gone that low before but of course the UCAS data doesn’t include last year. @Andreser i think he would probably love the Nottingham course and do well at it. My dd managed to get a good first in her Theology essay, a higher mark than any she’s got in Psychology! I think being a Christian helps as she had a lot of prior knowledge.

i think I’ll get Ds to decide based on his current offers for now and then we can revisit the Phil/Theol when he’s back.

Things to consider:

Would he be able to drop one of the 3 after the first year? My DC dropped most econ after the first year as they didn't enjoy the maths heavy content

Swansea is a very different place to live compared to universities in the East Midlands. Most people who go there thoroughly love their time there. Check which campus he would be based on - Singleton or Bay?

Are there any virtual offer holder days he could attend?

Given that he has his grades in hand he could start looking at early clearing as soon as it opens (normally early July). It’s unlikely to have as many movements/options on it as the full clearing frenzy in August but definitely worth keeping an eye on as you never know -you might get lucky given how unpredictable things are at the moment.

Thanks for all the advice. I think maybe the consensus is there’s probably not a massive difference between a 2:1 in PPE from UEA, Politics & Economics from Leicester or Philosophy &Theology from Nottingham. I will get him to accept the one he thinks he likes best of the current offers and then do some intense thinking and visits in July/early August.

@crazycrofter Difference to whom? This is surely dependent on employer, who might not even look at university, and the skills needed for the job? If it was a job requiring economics, then those skills would be of interest from the courses giving these, and work experience too.

For Jobs not directly allied to the degree, the attributes and skills DC gain are far more important than worrying about similar courses at these universities? If employers bin his cv as not what they are looking for and he’s not great at selection tests, courses studied won’t make much difference. Just go for what he will work at and complete.

Yes, agreed. Often on here people stress that you should go to the ‘best’ uni possible if doing a non-vocational degree, so I wanted to see if these particular ones would be viewed differently for generic grad schemes. Obviously he’d need to be competitive in lots of other ways and he’s aware of that. I think he will be.

Whether or not he should do Economics is the key question. He’s been given the name of someone doing PPE at Swansea so I think he needs to interrogate him about the Maths..

Yes I agree with those concerned about econ – I managed to miss that he got a 6 at GCSE. DD is bright but no mathematician and she got a 6. She would have been horrified I suspect at the idea of studying any mathematical subject at uni (stressing tho there is nothing wrong with a 6 in maths in general and for many it is a great achievement, in case it looks as tho I am saying anything else)

I know what you’re saying and I would agree. But I don’t think Ds is really a grade 6 level mathematician. Dd got an 8 and I’d say Maths doesn’t come as naturally to her as to ds. But I agree it’s a risk! He’d have to work hard to get up to the right level…

DD had a 9 for GCSE and A*, but dropped mathematical econ options in her 2nd year as she had hit peak maths in the 1st year. That was at the top uni for PPE though.

Don't eliminate Swansea without taking a closer look. It might suit your DS down to the ground. I work with household name employers who regularly recruit there for their Cardiff & Bristol offices

Thanks @Dodonutty - it’s an unknown to me really and they do accept students without Maths A Level so 🤔

Ive heard good things about Swansea. I’ll encourage him to take a good look

@crazycrofter Back in the day, DD got A for GCSE maths. 1 mark off A star. She’s no mathematician. On paper she could have studied Maths at A level. But reality was something very different. I would also say your DS hasn’t done any maths for 3 years. When he did he didn’t fully engage with it. The universities want bums on seats. They aren’t going to care whether he’s done maths at A level if they need students but he’s going to find catching up (possibly via extra tuition) a slog in addition to two other subjects. I’m not sure this is the best policy but agree further maths investigation needed. Economics isn’t business studies.

Yes I know (and so does ds) that it's not the same as Business. It's really hard with ds as his exam results aren't really a reflection of his ability. And I also know how much he enjoys a challenge. But all the comments have been taken on board and when he's back I'll get him to dig deeper. I was just looking at the Leicester joint honours and all the extra Maths is in the first year. Second year is intermediate micro and macroeconomics and by the third year he could drop all Economics. I need to look at the PPE courses too.

I personally don't understand the appeal of Nottingham as a university.

To be fair, the campus is very nice. My dd is enjoying her time there.

@Oneffcsa It has a great reputation for many courses. Geography, engineering, law in particular. It’s campus but not too far away from anything. A city with decent sport to watch and enough going on. Not too far from London by rail. It’s always been popular but recent events have obviously caused issues.

@crazycrofter Obviously you know him best. However I would still be wary of the effort required to get from Grade 6 to economics at university. How much will that impinge on what else he needs to do? DD with A in maths GCSE still doesn’t enjoy maths that she needs for her job and it’s fairly basic! Just not a natural.

Yep, I'm going to get a book I've seen online which covers the Maths involved and get him to start working through it when he's back! I always thought he was a natural when it came to Maths, but he just didn't bother learning any of the 'higher grade' content for GCSE as he decided he didn't need a high grade. Immature thinking obviously, but he's always been the type who needs to learn for himself/learn from his own mistakes. He can always switch to a combo of Philosophy/Politics/Theology in clearing if he decides against.

I'm not a massive fan of Nottingham, personally I think Birmingham is nicer, but it's got various benefits for us, particularly accessibility from where we live. Dd would love to have her brother there for her last year! They get on very well. But of course this isn't particularly a factor in the decision.

@crazycrofter Didn’t his teachers ensure he learnt it? How was it optional? I hope he doesn’t see degree elements as optional.

then do some intense thinking and visits in July/early August.

It would be much better to do this before accepting any offer, go visit them now!

I have a DC doing straight Economics BSc without Maths A Level and they have managed fine. They have had to work harder on the maths intensive modules but it wasn't impossible so, personally, I wouldn't rule PPE out for that reason. I think he got a first on the last mathsy exams, probably because he DID work extra hard on it. It's only a small part of Maths A level that's directly useful, certainly not the whole course.

Yeah I get that. To me I understand Nottingham to have a nice campus but also there's a city as well right?

@Oneffcsa There are a lot of university cities in the UK that don’t have the most ideal city centres or best areas away from the campus. They can feel run down but overall students don’t really care. If there did, quite a few cities and towns would be off limits!

I did theology at Nottingham (although over 20 years ago!). You could do modules from other schools. So I did psychology ones, sociology, classics, politics etc. so he would still be able to do economics I imagine.