Philosophy &Theology at Nottingham v PPE at ‘lower’ uni

[crazycrofter]

Ds has grades in hand and is holding offers for PPE from Essex, Swansea and UEA and Politics and Economics from Leicester. Philosophy is his favourite subject so he’s unlikely to choose Leicester, unless it’s on the basis of proximity to home and cheap living costs.

He’s ambitious and really wants to prove himself after not putting the effort in at sixth form. Having done some research, it looks likely that Nottingham might be in clearing for Philosophy and Theology at his grades. Would it be worth him trading up if this happens (given it also ticks some other boxes - nearer to home, his sister is there and he’s familiar with the uni/city). He is very interested in Theology too. But he chose PPE partly because he thought the Economics element would help with employability.

Clearing can def be a place to ‘trade-up’ and he might get a better option at that point.

It’s really important to do the right subject that he’s interested in. The biggest reason for dropping out is people being in the wrong course. So make sure either way that the course is right for him.

His offers are unconditional as he has grades in hand. He can still firm his favoured choice. It will be a confirmed choice. On results day he will be in the same position as those who’ve just got results and their offers have just become confirmed.

He should look at uni websites in the couple of days before results and certainly on the evening of day before and early morning if results day to see what’s available. He should ring his favoured places and if he gets a verbal offer, ask for email confirmation and then if sitting in more than one clearing offer make a decision about which to go for , and only after that, reject his firmed choice in ucas and put n his selected place. They will then confirm it.

If he wants to go down this route, he needs to plan ahead and be on the phones promptly at 8am as the best places will go quickly.

Sounds like he needs to think carefully about course as well as where he does it. Maybe he could go to some offer older day talks for the other course he might be interested in to try to work out which is right course for him. Both current course dnd others could be in Clearing.

What grades has he got and in which A levels?

This is the other thing - so that course at Nottingham has accepted BCC previously as per the UCAS page (and I know there were lots of Notts courses in clearing for CCC last year although I didn't check this one). Ds' grades are BBC, however he doesn't have RS and his subjects aren't mainstream/considered academic - Sociology, Criminology and Business. However he's also just done a Christian course out in New Zealand, which combined outward bounds challenges with Theological study! I think he'd love the Nottingham course, but he'd be worried about the lack of Economics!

Just to complicate matters, it was a late decision to apply to uni, he submitted his application in December and went abroad; he won't be back until the end of June. So he hasn't visited any of his options and he won't be able to do offer holder days either! On our occasional WhatsApp calls I've been encouraging him to look at his offers carefully so he can make a decision before the end of May. I won't mention Theology/Philosophy at Notts at this point as it's not in any way certain and it would confuse him!

Nottingham is a lovely campus University.
Large city, obviously, but not what it was, sadly.
My dd loved her time there, but I've heard accommodation can be tricky from 2nd year.
However, I've been told that applications at all Universities except Oxbridge are down on previous years, so that may not be such an issue.

I would go for PPE at UEA of those offers. Stick with the course he likes best and for me, UEA is 'better' or 'nicer' than Swansea and Essex. Hopefully he has visited them.all though and can decide based on the feels too, rather than just a paper based view!

@groovylady I live in Lenton. It’s all student accommodation, huge new blocks have gone up over the last year. I can’t imagine it would be an issue.

I assume Sociology A Level was an essay based subject. This could be considered fine for Theol and Phil…..PPE would have similar essay based requirements and has offered.

PPE without Maths can be hard. What does he have at GCSE? Those courses don’t require A level maths as they clearly g he ave offered to him, but proper Econ is v mathematical. It’s worth considering if it’s what he really wants to do or just thinks it looks good. That said, after 1st year there would be more flex in module choices and he could prob avoid the most maths based ones.

Sounds like it’s you thinking it all through. It is tricky if he’s not here, hasn’t visited anywhere and would struggle to engage with the options. I think there needs to be active engagement from them - in life joint at course content and visiting places. Without that they don’t really ‘buy in’ and dropping out has higher likelihood. Did he do any visits when still at school/college?

You sound v on the ball and thinking it through. But Does he actually really want to go? Does he really want to spend 3 years on any of the subjects? It is worth considering.

There can be great options in Clearing, but speedy decisions have to be made and really they need to be opting for subjects they are committed to.

That course is very undersubscribed. Why not call and ask if he’d get an offer? He could then reject his current offers and apply through Extra if he’s really interested. No need to wait for clearing. That way you could get accommodation sorted now.

Oh, it's definitely going to be his decision and he's been thinking about it a lot - he said he's been watching debates and listening to podcasts on all three PPE subjects and he feels quite sure about them - but he's not considered Theology, because he was focused on including Economics. He thinks he wants to do the Maths! He really likes challenging himself and complained that his A Level subjects were too easy!

His results are slightly misleading as he barely went to any lessons in year 13 and missed a lot of year 12 too due to teacher absence and disillusionment on his part, so basically he had to teach himself the courses from March to May of year 13. He just managed to get through the content in time but hadn't really had any exam practice (he took the mocks but got Us due to missing the content), so he only finished around 75% of every paper. He got A stars in all the questions he answered and felt he would have been able to answer all the others fine with a bit more time!

His Maths GCSE is a 6, but this was also due to lack of engagement in year 11 and wrong priorities!

Thanks for the input anyway. I'm not worried about Notts accommodation - dd has made a late decision to stay on for a fourth year and still hasn't arranged a house, but there's still loads on the market.

@DoctorMartin I hadn't thought of doing that - is it likely they'd be able to answer at this point though?

I took philosophy at uni and I would say (sorrry) it was a waste of three years. Maybe the way it is taught has changed but for me it was a lot of DWM and their very tedious writings. It was many years ago tho.

As an aside, Leicester being a lesser uni than Nottingham (which apparently has had some very low offers in clearing lately) makes me a bit sad. Would he actually like to go to Nottingham (all campus accom is catered and therefore £££)? It's a great uni but then the other ones you mention are too. As I say, I think Leics especially offers a great experience and is very much under the radar due I suspect to not being RG. My DD had a very good experience there which perhaps makes me biased. Obvs I know plenty of DC who had a great exp at Notts too.

Is he interested in the economics aspect of the degree? I see he dopesn't have maths A level. I think it's important to do the degree you will love rather than the one you think will get you a better job (if you don't enjoy your degree, will you enjoy the consequent job?) or one you reckon you can do at a better uni. Whatever that means (not a fan of uni ranking, perhaps bc neither of my uni DC went to RG hahaha).

Three years at uni studying a subject in real depth, and with lots of independent study, will be a struggle if you don't like the subject, I agree with @WombatChocolate there. Also good advice about clearing with which I concur. Clearing can feel like a rollercoaster and it’s perhaps not always easy or even possible to make the right decision as it it rushed. DD got her place through clearing (see other threads) and I think she actually lucked out though there was a good deal of (rapid) due diligence as well.

I see he has not been able to visit any options – but he could maybe organise that when he gets home? I would deffo advise that.

I agree with @Chewbecca I think UEA is head and shoulders above all those mentioned. I would say given the recent shifts in the league tables for Nottingham, it is on a par with it (yes, I know UEA is not RG but that's a very diluted accolade now).

I have friends who went to UEA, the children of friends who went to UEA and I nearly went myself. It's a very lively, fun university and Norwich is an absolutely wonderful, safe and cultural, nearby city.

I also know Essex quite well as I'm from those parts and have relatives who went there. It's a much poorer experience and by poorer I mean in every aspect. The buildings are crumbling, the professors are in some depts absolutely ancient and on their last legs. It was the #1 university for suicides for decades and its in a remote, foresty part of Essex outside of Colchester which can be grim on the w'ends - it has a very strong military presence (squaddies).

Nottingham is ok but like I say, it seems to be sliding in the rankings. You want to jump onto an upward trajectory, not a downward one.

Yes, I know Nottingham has slumped in the rankings - although actually, so has UEA over the last few years. He’s pretty much discounted Essex actually so your comments are helpful in confirming that @BubbaHorovitz .

@clary I went to Leicester and would love Ds to go there for so many reasons, but I think the lack of Philosophy may swing it (despite your comments about the subject!). We’re not massive fans of Nottingham as dd hasn’t been very impressed with the Psychology department. However she has done a Theology module and she’s got a friend studying straight Theology and it seems like a very good, supportive dept by comparison. And shes enjoyed life in Nottingham and goes to a church she loves, and which ds also really liked when he visited. So he may be swayed..

I actually think he’d love both courses.. so it’s really whether PPE is significantly better for employability or whether Nottingham would trump that.

I would genuinely be interested to know what is offered in a phi degree these days. Ppl often say of their DC oh they love debating things so phi is perfect - but genuinely, my degree consisted of studying Hume and Ayer and Kant. Looking back it was astonishingly badly organised.

So I guess I am saying, look closely at the course. I see he’s not done phi A level (not offered in my day) so where’s the passion coming from and is it correctly directed.

I really think he needs to pick what he will enjoy. Phi at Nottingham or PPE at UEA - won’t make that much difference tbh. But a 2:2 in one (bc not loving the course) and a first in the other will.

RS was in the running for A Level but in the end he went for other subjects. His best subjects at GCSE were RS, History and Business. He’s really interested in logic , in his faith (he’s a Christian), in current affairs and in business issues/entrepreneurship. He’s August born, with ADHD and he’s only just matured into an academic really .. He’s a very deep thinker and loves reasoning things out..

In the end, he’ll make his own decision, as my daughter did. But I do like to be able to give well researched advice!

My dd did similar, rejected all her offers after ringing a different uni (not Nottingham, but another RG) and being told they’d offer if she applied. She got her offer an hour later.

If your ds has grades in hand he’s in an even better position. It’s worth a call if he’s interested.

As an aside I’d be very wary of a degree with economics in if he hasn’t done A level maths.

Hmmm I got hold of him and hes sticking to the Economics idea at the moment! I’m assuming they wouldn’t offer without maths A Level if they didn’t think it was possible - there are Maths catch up classes in year 1. Ds wishes he’d focused on maths and done the A Level now - he never struggled with Maths but he was immature and thought he didn’t ‘need’ a high grade at GCSE.

I too would be very wary of economics with just grade 6 GCSE in maths. Employability won’t be great from the Nottingham course either. He’s not really pushed the boat at A level and doesn’t engage fully with a number of things. What is the degree going to lead to? Fun at uni or a job? If a job, which career? Difficult to see what from the Notts course. UAE sounds better but he might find the economics a challenge as Business isn’t great prep for it.

He could apply for a foundation year

He's definitely not going to UAE @TizerorFizz 😂

He was adamant he wasn't going to uni up until he started working on his A Levels. Then he started to enjoy the content, the challenge of completing it in a short space of time etc and he started to regret his previous poor decisions (which we knew he would, but he had to learn for himself...). He's definitely going because he wants to push himself, reach his potential etc. Like lots of boys he's a late developer academically, as well as being young for his year.

He had been thinking about a real estate apprenticeship and would still be interested in pursuing that later (he'd need a masters and then the RICS qualification - he's talked to a few people and some companies will sponsor the masters). However he's not 100% sure and might also be interested in accountancy or civil service (we have family experience in these areas).

@crazycrofter Aaah! Got my UEA the wrong way around! Still is a hard ask though without maths!

Do you buy the pushing himself now? Track record is a bit iffy. What is his potential? Difficult to quantify really. However if this degree is going to cost money, what about business? He’s done that. Everything else is a punt as it’s new.

Yes I do buy it as it’s how he operates! The ADHD hyper focus kicks in once he’s committed to something. During lockdown he taught himself the piano up to roughly grade 6 standard, he’s pursued weight lifting with incredible discipline over the last four years and he worked 60-70 hours a week at Tesco between June and Dec last year to earn money for travelling…

I don’t think he’s as enthused about Business unfortunately! I guess if the worst comes to the worst he can change course/restart which isn’t ideal..

I think those hobbies are quite random though. His choices. I think university is more structured. However I’d look at job prospects and work backwards.

Yes, they're random, but if he wants to do something he does it. Tesco was pretty structured.. I'm actually worried about ADHD and the lack of structure at university but that's a different question and would apply equally to a degree apprenticeship..

None of his career options require a particular degree, so I guess it doesn't matter what he does really, as long as he gets a good degree. I will get him to look hard at the Economics content and see what he can find out about it.