Law at Oxbridge

[JemmaAndHar]

Inspired by another thread, how can we support ds (year 10) to have a chance at getting a place at oxbridge? He's in top sets at an ordinary state comprehensive and on track for very good GCSEs. Looking to do Maths, History and either Philosophy or Further Maths for A-Levels or Politics. He has a passion for reading but doesn't read much non fiction. He's interested in history, philosophy, debating, law but not passionate or single minded about any of these. There is no debating club at his school.

We are not an Oxbridge family either. I've read on MN that candidates at interview are selected for their comprehensive knowledge and passion for the subject. Are any 17/8 year olds really passionate about the law? If they are, ds will probably not have a chance as he's interested in law but doesn't e.g. submerge himself in books related to law, if this is what's needed?

He's interested in all his prospective A-levels but not single minded. He's very social and lives for sports, especially rugby. He'd probably do quite well in the LNAT as he is academic and good at revising and memorising but not sure about the interview stage. Seeing how competitive Oxbridge is, maybe he's too 'ordinary' to be considered. What steps could he take now to be in the best possible place to apply for Law? Shall we get a subscription to magazines, newspapers or similar? Which ones? His knowledge of current affairs isn't amazing at the moment. I hope this post doesn't sound completely dumb, I admit I feel very much not in the know.

Also, which other Law schools would you recommend as possible alternatives? Any thoughts and tips would be so appreciated.

Get him public speaking experience. IMO that's what cracks it, if all the academic achievement is sound

A friend who has a son starting in Cambridge this year gave me this advice: talk about current affairs at the dinner table.

If your DS has read the paper, get him to share stories that interested him, you can all chip in with opinions. It's supposed to be relaxed and not like an exam! It develops loads of skills, not least forming an opinion on what you read, and being able to communicate that with adults.

My kids are a bit too young, but this sounded like good advice to me.

OP- you said he he is interested in law "especially at Oxbridge". You need to dig into this and work out what he means. The courses, teaching approach etc are very different between Oxford and Cambridge. And he should pick a subject he is interested in more generally, not just at a particular Uni.

But if he is interested in law, my advice is to get him involved in public speaking- mooting, debating, model UN etc. It's not so much the performative element that helps but the ability to take volumes of material and turn in into a credible argument, clearly articulated. That would stand him in really good stead.

Having applied and succeeded in a different subject many years ago, my advice would be not to overthink it too much. Focus on GCSEs, see how that goes; he should pick the A levels he loves the most and ensure they are all core subjects. I would maybe think about PPE, but in that case do history A level, as gives good grounding in politics and is usually viewed as more serious than some politics syllabi at that level. Also be very careful how much you get involved and reveal your own anticipation. He has to view the interview and the test as more of a stimulating intellectual exercise that doesn't have to succeed. What interviewers in most arts subjects want to see is original thinkers with the self discipline and curiosity to manage a largely self directed, very substantial workload - but who are not too arrogant to learn. He may change his subject focus as he starts A levels.

@JemmaAndHar

My DD is a barrister. She pretty much knew that was her career goal from y11. However she did a MFL degree. Therefore my advice would be that he needs to have four other universities in mind in addition to Cambridge or Oxford. A law degree at either is around a 1/10 chance of getting in. So you must look at sound alternatives amongst the RG unis. Durham and Bristol are good back ups.

I don't have advice on how to get into Law at Oxbridge but I do know what it takes to become a barrister. I would highly recommend public speaking and confidence. High academic qualifications and a broad education helps a lot. Critical thinking and being quick on the uptake are important as the pace is fast. Coping with being out of your comfort zone is definitely required.

I would follow the advice given by posters above and cab is definitely possible whilst at university. Sitting in at court and public coroner's sessions is worthwhile. I think Oxbridge used to have subject open days - see if they still do. Open days are usually for y12. Look at dates and keep in mind when you need to apply for a place. Ditto other universities.

With his strong maths and interest in philosophy, PPE might be something worth considering (and he can convert to law afterwards if he still wants to).

Actually Cambridge, in their guide to choosing A levels, suggest maths is a great choice for law. They recommend 2 A levels to be from their list as best prep for a social science or arts degree. The 3rd A level can be from the supplementary list. I would suggest their advice is good for any competitive university for law. Here’s a screenshot of the relevant subjects. FM is recommended for Economics so if DS changes to PPE or similar, add in FM. For law at Oxbridge it’s not necessary though.

It’s going to be about the way you think and interview , LNAT test and of course getting on track for high grade A levels. Getting as much general knowledge as possible is always good and knowing about the legal system and how it underpins our democracy will always help.

As a 16 year old I read The Justice Game by Geoffrey Robertson which made me very concerned about injustice and keen to be a lawyer (my actual law degree bored me stupid by comparison).
Also really recommend just getting into having radio 4 playing in the house while eating breakfast etc. We also get a weekend newspaper (no time the rest of the week) and sit about for a bit. Kids mostly browse the food and magazine sections, but it builds that gradual sense of current affairs and we chat about stuff in a low key way.
You sound like a great mum!

There’s always the Secret Barrister!

At the end of the day op, the best you can do is to take a step at a time and support him as best you can with the day to day choices he makes with a view to his general development rather than cracking some secret code to acing the interview. There are a lot of urban myths about what courses/ what books to read/ what newspaper to follow. Ultimately, none of these things are likely to feature at all in his interviews. The interviewers aren’t - despite much rumour to the contrary - all that interested in hearing him wax lyrical about some pre-prepared information.

Ultimately, the interviews are designed to assess potential, not prior preparation - which is in fact a very fair approach and works as a leveller to a much greater extent than the interview system really gets credit for. They will give him something totally unprepared - which he won’t find in any book, course or newspaper - and see how he cracks on with it. I think sometimes interviewers are polite and sympathetic when candidates tell them about things they have been learning about, and the candidates then come away and imagine that swung it for them, which is where these rumours start. These universities can choose the candidates with the best aptitude for the subject, and getting an A in German rather than an A star in further maths isn’t going to make them reject a candidate who performed much better with the sorts of challenges they give in the interview. Of course successful candidates tend to have impressive grades but they won’t actually put them in a ranked queue for places. The candidates who stick out will stick out for their aptitude in interview, not because they read seven versions of every current event for the last few years or memorised whole chapters of a book about the law. They will put his brain into action and watch it go! If he’s got the goods you don’t need to worry. And if he hasn’t, in the long run it’s better to find out before he’s mired in the wrong course. It’s really normal as a mum to want to try to control the ultimately uncontrollable, but I think it generates quite a bit of stress without achieving much. Sit back, let him choose what most rocks his boat and tell him you believe in him!

The candidates who stick out will stick out for their aptitude in interview, not because they read seven versions of every current event for the last few years or memorised whole chapters of a book about the law. They will put his brain into action and watch it go! If he’s got the goods you don’t need to worry. And if he hasn’t, in the long run it’s better to find out before he’s mired in the wrong course. It’s really normal as a mum to want to try to control the ultimately uncontrollable, but I think it generates quite a bit of stress without achieving much. Sit back, let him choose what most rocks his boat and tell him you believe in him!

Ahem 🤔

Oxbridge tutors (of all subjects) are looking for aptitude in and passion for that subject. They want someone who finds it fascinating to think through complex legal cases and enjoys the intellectual challenge of it. (They are also aware that lots of people apply for law because their parents think it’s a good subject, and because Oxford and Cambridge are prestigious, and the student may lack any real enthusiasm for studying law.)

Ask your DS what about law it is that makes him want to study it. Suggest that he reads around the subject (there are suggestions for reading on various college websites and Law faculty ones) and thinks more about what interests him. Bear in mind that if it’s just being a lawyer, he can do the conversion afterwards.

You can’t read a news article that will secure a place.

Lots of parents turn themselves inside out trying.

Thanks for your input. I'm curious, have you had experience with Oxbridge admissions or a similar process? I'd like to understand what led to your perspective.

Yes I have.

As parents we want to help secure outcomes but there isn’t always a secret trick. I think the admissions processes are designed to be as probing as possible and to cut through to the candidate’s raw ability.

Of course there are plenty of ( expensive) agencies who will tell you otherwise and charge well-meaning parents a lot for their tricks of the trade.

Raw ability is great, but raw ability combined with an understanding of the system is even better.

I don’t think many would aim for Oxbridge without grasping how unlikely it is to obtain a place, but it makes sense to learn about the admissions process, especially as a family with no Oxbridge experience. Thanks to the posters who have generously shared their insights, I feel a little less ignorant now.

With Year 11 coming up and exam prep around the corner, now’s a great time to gather information and stay open-minded, in my view. Prospective medics often volunteer at care homes or with SJA, but there don't seem to be similar opportunities for aspiring lawyers. For instance, my nephew participated in something like Industrial Cadets, focusing on engineering, and it has certainly helped clarify his career path.

Truthfully, op, the best thing he can do is listen carefully to what they are asking him to do.

Many candidates are so distracted by the “preparation” they are trying to hold in their mind/display/work into the interview that they miss the point of the interview.

I get the feeling my advice rubbed you up the wrong way, but ultimately just listening and responding with a clear mind is a fabulous tool for him to take into those ( all-important) interviews. They are not trying to trick him; they are trying to identify the best fit.

@Calliopespa Truthfully, op, the best thing he can do is listen carefully to what they are asking him to do. Many candidates are so distracted by the “preparation” they are trying to hold in their mind/display/work into the interview that they miss the point of the interview.

This is excellent advice. There is a difference between wanting to learn about the process and attempting to control the outcome, or indeed the child. All anyone can ever do is give it their best effort. Ability and a genuine interest, combined with reading around the subject, remaining open-minded, and engaging fully in the interview, all seem like a sensible approach.

I think there’s something to be said for identifying whether your child has a particular weakness that might impede them at interview, and if so, trying to help them rectify it. Because if they do, that weakness might get in the way of allowing them to show their aptitude (assuming they have it). But agree with @Calliopespa otherwise, ultimately it is about aptitude. I think my parents might well have been perceived as preparing me too much, but what they really did was recognised (because they knew me so well) that my innate traits included some major disadvantages, and helped me work on those.

My advice is don’t overthink the application process. It’s not onerous and is very clearly documented on the universities websites. My DC navigated it alongside all the other stuff that sixth formers typically do (sport, socialising, weekend jobs) and we are not an Oxbridge family.

So people saying this is a bit early to be thinking about studying Law,
well my DS (also from a comp) has encountered many who have been prepped for a career in Law from this age and younger - almost exclusively privately educated and with family/close friends high up in Law firms who have ensured they have had relevant work experience and know the score.

My advice would be to try to get your DS Work Experience in a Law firm, taster days, etc as soon as possible.
if he gets a place at Oxbridge, he would be far more likely to get an internship and then Training Contract at a big Law firm, so it is definitely worth him pursuing ways of proving that he is interested in a career in Law and has done stuff to prove it.

My son decided in the summer break before ucas applications open then he wanted to do law at Oxford. He did no reading or research prior to this point and only started then. He read Tom Bingham and spoke to the careers advisor at school.

the interview was brutal and he came away feeling like he’d been torn to pieces because as one poster put it they give you unseen articles and basically expect to see analysis and critical thinking in action.

he was very surprised to receive an offer and did go off to Oxford but I will warn you. It’s intense, it’s not for the faint hearted and he did struggle with the pace and workland of such a demanding course and uni. He’s now in the world of work and doing well for himself but the Oxford pace nearly broke him.

Honestly it’s really random, my DS has friends who got 12 9s in GCSEs and 4A* predictions and still didn’t get interviews. At a state school. He should get the best grades at GCSE as he can. Chose good A levels and apply as one of his 5. It’s very competitive.

They know what they are looking for in interview.

And by “passion” they really mean your natural ability and the way you respond and grapple with the tasks they throw at you. By all means having a poster of Lord Denning on your wall won’t hurt; but once in that interview, a rote-learned 650 word monologue on why the law commends itself to you as a career path is only going to be a distraction. No candidate needs to worry too much if they haven’t prepped these things. They will try to choose an assessment that places all candidates on a level playing field.

There’s a lot of chat on here about the interview. The initial hurdle is to get one.

Of course applicants are ranked. Firstly in terms of an interview opportunity and then in terms of an offer. LNAT and contextual GCSE scores inform ranking. A low score on LNAT tests might wipe out good predicted grades. Around 29% of applicants at Oxford are interviewed of whom around 38% are offered a place for law. All of this info is published as are successful minimum LNAT scores.