If your child was planning on studying Art/Fine Art at Uni, would you advise them against it due to lack of job prospects (and AI)?

[NewYearNewBear]

Just that really.
My daughter loves art and is studying it as an A level subject and wants to study fine art at University.
She got an 8 at GCSE exam.

She thinks she can become a portrait artist and doesn't seem to want to consider related carers like graphics etc.
Would you advise them against studying Art even though it's probably the only thing they are passionate about?

I’ve not RTFT but, in case it’s of any help, I regularly take grads into our management consultancy grad scheme and there have been a couple of fine art grads over the years (also music, history etc as well as the more common business and law related degrees). If anything I’d say it makes them stand out. The core skills are very transferrable.

Obviously that doesn’t help if she wants to make a living from it, but it does mean she’s not closing off her options.

Painter here. I went to art college, and whilst the experience overall was positive, and I made lots of friends, I didn't learn much art; I learnt to talk and write about it.

Sadly, most art courses now have nothing to do with art; they are art theory courses. Many tutors don't know how to paint; for the last 40 years, painting was seen as unfashionable, and conceptual art was pushed heavily, totally deskilling generations of prospective painters.

To keep the courses running and themselves in jobs, the people running the courses must apply academic criteria per the university model to keep the funding going. She will have to justify every mark she makes on the canvas, research it, reflect on it, and write about it to the point that it could compromise her talent and, depending on her style, any spontaneity to make a good painting.

If your daughter wants to be a portrait painter, I would look at the Royal Society of Portrait Painters website and some of the artists she likes; look at their bios to see where they trained and work backwards from there. Another thought is to contact the painters directly and ask if they run courses or ask to train with them, similar to the atelier method.

With any good portrait painter, you need drawing as your foundation. If she is looking at traditional portraiture, consider The Lyme Academy of Fine Arts. Jordan Sokol is the art director, an exceptional painter -

https://lymeacademy.edu/

Best of luck. I did many sensible jobs, but in the end, art won through. The world needs really good art more than ever x

I have one DD who did STEM, and has a fab well paying job. Other daughter is doing a Humanities, very niche, low job prospects. I have supported both to do what their passion is. I care not one jot, as to where they will end up. It's their life. I will support them up to Masters, and then it's over to them.

If your DC doesn't want to study a subject then they are unlikely to do well. I work in STEM and think I've had the most interesting career that has been incredibly varied because of the changes in what the technology allows us to do but also have good security and job perks. However I rather suspect that because people are aware now that STEM has a skills shortage that may be less true moving forward.

FWIW the company I now work for has been working on AI for decades, none of us are worried about our jobs because it's just a tool that allows you to do more, it's not a replacement for people, it's only come to the attention of the press because the big language models have improved so much recently.

Allow your DC to choose whatever they want to study. But get them thinking about careers and what they are good at, what they enjoy, what they can be paid for and how useful it is.

I would advise against. She doesn't need an art degree to be a portrait artist, but whether she does the degree or not the prospects of making a living as an article are miniscule.

I know a lot of artists. Very few make good money from their art. Not many even make a living wage, it tends to be a struggle to make a low wage and involves teaching workshops to supplement income and doinglots of your own marketing, promotion, e-commerce etc.

For most artists it is an enjoyable way of earning pocket money while retired/raising children/doing another job.

Quite a few of my school friends went on to do art or art related subjects. None earning a living wage from producing art, not even the one who had a painting purchased by a well-known wealthy collector. Most are doing unskilled work that they could have got without a degree, admin, hospitality etc. One earns a low wage working at a public gallery. One went back to uni and retrained in an alternative field.

One who didn't do art but did a related subject has done well working in film special effects but they were exceedingly bright with maths/science A levels as well and were in the right place at the right time.

I would only suggest an art degree if she wants to be an art teacher.

It isn't all doom and gloom as mentioned my other dc did a creative degree, graduated just over two years ago and is a freelancer in their field. In that time, they have paid off their student loans, earn more than their parents combined and are saving towards a house deposit. Everyone told me how brave I was to let my child do a creative degree and I was v nervous, I even opened a SIPP for them and saved some money for them!!! I marvel now at their ability to hustle and their work ethic, finding opportunities all over the place. It can be done although I get it isn't easy.

I think my youngest dd watches their sibling and takes notes, lol!

We are also not a rich family, but we do have a house and they know they are welcome to stay at home for as long as necessary so in that sense we feel we can let them take a punt on a creative career.

Regards to foundation, my dd decided not to do one as she was pretty sure what she wanted to do as a degree. I was a little sad about that as they do seem like amazing courses. Not all art foundation courses are free. I went to plenty of open days and was impressed by Kingston and WMC.

I did a 1 year art foundation course followed by a 3 year fashion and textiles degree when the fees were 3k per year. I had always wanted to be a fashion designer. I worked very hard, read all the books I could, did what work experience I could, took extra courses. I also had a part time job working 25 hours per week whilst I was at university to cover the cost of materials (that was not covered in the school fees - fabrics, drawing materials, laptop, materials required for uni workshops). Whilst my friends from home were having a great time partying at uni, i was virtually a recluse because of the volume of work required. There weren't any days off. After finishing university I was the only one to get a full time paid fashion design job in London straight after uni (part hard work and part luck, being in the right place at the right time). In my first fashion design job I earned 16k. I was miserable and after a year I quit and went home. A year later, I picked myself back up and got my next fashion deisgn job in London (24k) and from then on I kept going up and up. Would I do it again with the fees being so high? Maybe not.
If my mum had told me she didn't think it was a good idea to pursue my degree, it would only have made me more determined to do it. Fortunately my parents were very supportive. Out of the rest of the class that I graduated with, only the ones from wealthy backgrounds were able to make a go out of a career in the industry and that was because they could afford to do unpaid internships or had family/friends in London who could put them up, or they could afford a masters. Alot of them worked unpaid for at least a year before finding paid jobs.
My advice would be for your daughter to gain as much work experience as possible, try to build a following on social media, promote herself as much as possible, she needs to be the best she can be, or offer something different from everyone else, take short courses in fine art if she can (used to lots at the university of the arts London- they do summer programmes). She sounds like she is very creative and has a talent and that is obviously important to her. I would never want to discourage someone from losing that or giving up but it would be helpful if she had some idea of other career pathways you can pursue with a fine arts degree.

On the contrary. If she ends up being one of the majority where a fine arts degree leads to a lifetime of being a 'starving artist' then she won't have to pay much of it back. It's like it doesn't exist. Or it could be a million pounds and it wouldn't matter.

But if that's her passion then that's what she should study. It might become a gateway for other related careers like set design in the theatre, museum/gallery curation or anything really, she could teach. She might change her mind. Discuss with her the risk of not earning a lot from being an artist, but don't discourage it.

@Ottima as someone who studied fine art and found the theory side took all the joy away from art for me, I completely agree. It ruined the creative, expressive side of art having to explain every reason or make art to an academic prescription and tick some boxes for whatever project the tutors chose (that generally held no interest for me).

If I had my time again I would choose something closer to illustration or design, or just dedicate my time to creating my art and self learning, without doing the fine art degree which for me ruined the joy of creativity.

I didn't learn a lot to be honest! It was crap.

@Fluffywalrus - your point about fine art being the same as degrees like humanities or social sciences is a bit misguided I think. Yes, you could study art and go into something art related, like graphic design. Equally, you could study a degree that ends up having no bearing on your future profession...

However, disregarding vocational degrees like medicine or law, most academic degrees provide a body of knowledge that does affect future employment prospects. Eg a planning company will likely to be interested in geography graduates, a think tank in politics graduates, a publisher in English lit graduates etc. Moreover, those are degrees that seem to open doors to a variety of paths - I don't think you can say quite the same thing about fine art.

Gosh, what a way to create bitterness and resentment between siblings!

I wouldn't discourage. If they have found their passion I would actively encourage!

There is so much more to studying for a degree than getting a job at the end, and there are so many more ways into a career than a degree. Encourage her to study what she loves.

To those declaring "I know 100 people who studied for a degree and now work in a bar" - it doesn't matter. No one starts their career at the top. You study something, you take a job, any job, and start learning work skills. Working in a bar gives you teamwork, communication, customer service, planning, management, etc. No job is a dead end if you're willing to put your skills to use.

So depressing.

This country is rightly seen as one of the best producers of the most innovative and creative people. This is our USP. Our arts and design people are a really big 'export' for this country and we would do well to make more of this.

There are lots and lots of well paid jobs in the creative industries - even if not an actual fine artist. take a few of the industries Britain is famous for - film, games design, fashion, architecture, production, music events. all of them are full the world over with Brits. Want to be a fashion designer? fine, but you might not end up as Alexander McQueen. You may end up as any one of a whole number of jobs in the fashion industry. Ditto production technology, Art, Design, Games design, and so on.

I often think that this is the difference between the privileged and unprivileged background is the view that it's an airy fairy job and you won't 'make' it, and thus you need to study something more traditionally academic. The creative industries are a big part of our economy, and AI is going to highlight this.

In London it's the University of the Arts London that runs Foundation courses. Elsewhere it's further education colleges where you'd do sixth form.

Here's what they say:

"The Foundation Diploma is designed to prepare students for specialist undergraduate degrees in art and design subjects. It’s a year of exciting projects, new faces and experiences that will inform your future study, career and creative life.

Foundation is widely considered the best preparation for progression to an undergraduate degree in the creative arts in the UK. On this dynamic course, you’ll try different disciplines from across art and design while being supported to fulfil your creative potential and ambition"

https://www.arts.ac.uk/subjects/communication-and-graphic-design/pre-degree-courses/ual-foundation-diploma-in-art-and-design

Yes really FREE

Disagree, Fine Art usually opens doors to the same or very similar graduate schemes / paths to those of Humanities subjects. As has been backed up by the experiences of my peers and even some of the recruiters who have posted on this thread. Can you name a path / graduate scheme that would be closed off by doing Fine Art vs English Lit at Uni?

If you know you want to apply for a specific kind of graduate scheme like publishing then yes, consider a subject that's closely related.

But anyway the girl's passion is in art... so by your logic that would mean studying that subject makes the most sense.

Here's some info about the foundation course I did OP. Yes it's free assuming she's not older than 18 for any reason. It really is the expectation on all Art undergraduates and I'm surprised your DD's college haven't advised her on this?

www.arts.ac.uk/subjects/communication-and-graphic-design/pre-degree-courses/ual-foundation-diploma-in-art-and-design#course-overview

Regarding student loans please please try not to think of it as being "saddled with debt". The loans are really more of a graduate tax and very much graduated in terms of how much you earn - so a very low repayment for an average salary. The "debt" is not viewed as such by credit agencies, banks or mortgage lenders and so it has no bearing on future lending prospects, and there's no record of the loan attached to the graduate's name on any formal records other than with the SLC. Martin Lewis has some excellent resources and this explainer video is really helpful. I now work in HE and have to advise students all the time, and I think his advice is sage.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-decoded/

age 19 - designed for post A Levels

this was meant to be referring to the quote from @Sdpbody about only studying STEM subjects

There's a strange assumption among some posters that if you discourage a child from the arts they can just pootle off and be successful studying a STEM degree. This is total bollocks, and pretty disrespectful to those kids who are passionate about STEM.

My DS is going to do an arts degree and has offers from 4 RG universities so far and is waiting on an even more prestigious one. He is quite smart, and should hopefully get the grades but there is no way on earth that he would be able to cope with a STEM degree, never mind enjoy it even though he got 8s and 9s in all his STEM subjects at GCSE. And there is no way that he would even have got on offer from the institutions that he is looking at.

And what happens when he graduates?

I reckon that if he works hard he could get a 1st in the thing he loves from a brilliant university.

If we forced him into STEM we would be looking at a crappy degree from University of Wherever. And he would be competing with the kids who love STEM with degrees from Oxbridge/ RG/ other amazing places.

This is not the way to happiness and riches.

By all means be practical and realistic, and have a back up plan. But please don't assume that STEM is some kind of magic ticket for thwarted artists.

My teenage DS loves music and is considering a Music degree (similar issues to Fine Art). He is CONSTANTLY being told by all and sundry that it's a waste of time and he will never get a job. Almost invariably the people who say this are frustrated creative types who didn't follow their own dreams.

I think it's far better to allow your DC to follow their passion, even if it doesn't lead to a career they will have given it a shot. The world is full of frustrated lawyers/accountants etc who were pushed into it by their parents and are resentful decades later (I know some people love those jobs too).

I teach on a degree that is considered respectable at a RG uni. Many of our students are not really that interested or engaged and don't get a lot out of the degree other than the piece of paper at the end (a very expensive piece of paper). I would advise any young person to go for the degree they feel passionate about, and if they don't feel passionate about any degree, think long and hard about whether uni is worth it.

I work in Banking. One of my most successful colleagues has just moved internally to a really senior and high profile position. He did a degree in art in a non RG university. You are basically talking bollocks!

She might find it useful to look at this from all the different angles so she can make an informed decision, but if she has a real talent and passion, I would be encouraging her to follow her dreams. It's not all about money. We really need to nurture creativity.

I'm on 6 figures in the City. I did a STEM masters as well as a Fine Art degree but honestly the thing that gives me the edge over my peers is the art background, I come at things from a different angle.

I know plenty of people in maths-based jobs (finance, banking, commercial management) with music degrees. Very happy they did a creative degree and very happy in their careers.