Law at which?

[stubiff]

Any recommendations for Law from (only) these.
They all have the same tariff, that's why they are grouped.
City/campus doesn't matter.

University of Nottingham
University of York
University of Sheffield
University of Exeter
Cardiff University
University of Birmingham
Newcastle University
University of Southampton
University of Liverpool

Thanks, in advance.

@stubiff

I’m not sure I can answer your questions. It’s pretty clear London solicitors recruit heavily from Oxbridge which is RG. After that, the unis like Durham, Bristol, Nottingham. Exeter, UCL and others are popular. I think this is probably because London and SE students favour these unis. They then expect to work in London. I have no proof, but it’s a hunch. They actually apply for London jobs which maybe others don’t?

Regarding the regions. Regional RG unis still come top in terms of employment. There might be good reasons for this. They are large law departments. Manchester leads the way but Durhsm grads work regionally too. Far fewer conversion grads work regionally. Probably because of cost vs earnings. It’s always worth remembering that some people who convert to law who are experts already. They find specific roles and they might have degrees from all sorts of unis but are valued for their expertise. They are typically older of course.

I think that young people who are good enough to aspire to a career in law are going to be good enough to to get to a RG uni. So that’s where they go. Manchester is strong regionally but plenty of other unis are very good but the entry standards reflect competition. However Sheffield is not really worse than Leeds. It’s marginal. The same with York or Birmingham. The most competitive unis have LNAT too.

I do think studying with like minded people and a uni that supports law students well does matter. Who turns up at law careers fairs? London firms? Anyone from the Inns of Court? Is there a critical mass aiming high? If dc is at Oxbridge, scholarship applications, vac schemes and job deadlines are all they think about. I think other uni students don’t necessarily have this drive. I do think some employers will look at unis and think DC do not have the educational background that makes them stand out. When there’s huge competition, employers do know which uni courses they think produce the best employees.

I do not believe uni is the sole reason people get jobs though . They must have more to offer. A poster above described her DDs strategy in terms of wanting to be a barrister (I think it was). It mirrored what my DD did. So just uni doesn’t replace juggling lots of things, being quick on the uptake, writing well and advocating well, taking a leadership role and taking part in as much law things as you can, researching your branch of law (vital), having a bright personality and interviewing well all matter. Honing personal skills are important and it’s easier to see how this is done if everyone around you is aiming high too. I would say Oxbridge students get the extras by just being there (and non law grads get virtually nothing) but law grads elsewhere need to grasp everything they can and this is easier at RG.

Oops! An essay!

I think by 'extras' Tizer possibly means mooting competitions which at Oxbridge are run relatively often and are sponsored by top firms or chambers? These are almost exclusively for law students (non law students aren't in the same position to present a case). These competitions are much more for those aiming for the Bar. I'm not sure about other 'extras'? Of course the top firms do all go to have dinner/ hold events at individual colleges and the university in general to court potential applicants. Lots attend these events if only for the free drinks etc. and maybe because it sometimes seems that entire cohorts in their second year decide they want to go to a City firm of solicitors, so there's a panic/ bandwagon effect.

@TizerorFizz I can't either, well, not with any accuracy anyway.

I think it's roughly a numbers game. There is no evidence (I don't think) that RG (for the Uni part only) gives an advantage (apart from where there is obvious bias).
So, the probability of securing a role is, probably, roughly the same from York, Leeds, Sheffield or Lancaster (RG or non-RG).
As you say, it's the interviewing/testing/assessment centre that secures the applicant the role in the end. If you get a 1st from Lancaster and are biased out of the first stage, then do you really want to work there anyway.

There will be a mix of everything across the sector - some will have a bias (conscious or not) of RG, some will be semi blind (not told Uni) and some like Irwin Mitchell are fully blind (Uni/Grade) where they rely on the online test for the first cull (i.e. are you up to the future not what/where have you achieved).

So, short story, as a PP said, of the original list, it probably doesn't matter which one. Base it on the vibe, course options, campus/city (once observed), that kind of thing.

When posters say ‘like-minded people’ be aware they mean privately educated affluent and South East based.

stubiff it's arguable that these online tests are too flawed to base decisions on exclusively. Firms making a big investment in a trainee need more than that to invest. Firms which pay less for the training years may not care as much since their investment is less. Certainly it seems that the better the firm the more care/ caution they take in recruiting.

It's also more than arguable that it's significantly harder to achieve a first at some universities than others, so a first from one university won't carry anything like the weight as a first from another. A preference for certain unis may be a bias, but it's a reasoned bias, based on the rigour of the degree awarded by the uni. The word bias is loaded: it suggests blind prejudice which isn't the case. We're long past the days of the old school tie/ college/ uni but it remains the fact that the unis which are the most competitive are the most competitive for a reason and employers know this.

If university - or the calibre of student who goes to a particular uni plus the effect of the teaching they receive once there - is of no consequence then it's extremely odd that certain unis continue to dominate the legal profession in London at least, in spite of all the recruitment tactics to move away from decisions made on prejudice. Tizer makes a perfectly valid point about that.

@AsTearsGoBy
Agree, not all Unis are equal. A first from X is not the same as a first from Y.
But a first from Lancaster, should, in my eyes, be treated the same as a first from Liverpool, say. If Liverpool are doing other things to make their graduates better candidates then that's another thing.

I think it's just history that the firms go to the usual suspects for fairs/recruitment, etc, and that feeds the students thought of 'oh, I must go to one of those', rather than somewhere equivalent.
Here, I'm not talking about choosing Bradford, say, over York, just because some firms do blind recruitment. I'm just saying it happens, the blind recruitment (rightly or wrongly).

Absolutely blind recruitment happens stubiff and the upshot almost everywhere that it's been introduced (for highly competitive jobs) has been that more Oxbridge/ 'elite' uni (your phrase not mine!) graduates have got offers than with open recruitment.

To that extent, uni choice won't matter. But if you're not in that bracket of being able to apply to one of these unis then applying strategically (eg to a regional uni with good legal connections in an area where you can see yourself settling) makes absolute sense. Because the top jobs are overwhelmingly likely to continue to go to the graduates from the same set of universities for as long as recruitment is based on merit. Not exclusively, but overwhelmingly.

"has been that more Oxbridge/ 'elite' uni (your phrase not mine!) graduates have got offers than with open recruitment." nice outcome for the firms, getting more of what they want, but originally trying to be open (I jest!).

@AsTearsGoBy That is what I feel too. It is the best advice to go to the best uni possible.

I also don’t agree that law societies and extras conferred by universities are just about privately educated dc. Most elite Unis have DC from all backgrounds and the majority aren’t from private schools but they nearly all want the same job outcomes. I agree there’s a lemming effect. I am not sure this happens in the same way at less competitive Unis. Maybe dc are more realistic about what they can achieve and apply strategically?Certainly area of law and firm would be vital in this.

The extras are not just mooting. As a non law grad, Dd never did any. No law society membership either. However when studying law, these are the advantages. Also calibre of lecturers, calibre of other students and contacts the uni has, such as highly respected speakers and advisers, plus strategy for employment are all are available to students at more elite unis. Others need to do a bit more to make up the deficit.

I don’t think anyone truly thinks the uni of Gloucester would teach law as well as Bristol. Law is competitive so students should do the best they can to get to a uni that gives them the best chance to grab opportunities. Pretending all are equal is foolish I’m afraid.

Brief convo with DS this morning suggested these possibles - Nottingham, York, Sheffield and maybe Manchester or Leeds as a stretch one.
And then we'll look at the next level down!

I've been impressed with the extras offered at Sheffield.
Dd is very pretty self motivated and has grabbed anything on offer really.
Mooting has been a really good way of winning mini pupillages. It's usually the prize for the winners. Although a couple of times the barrister judging has been impressed by the level of all finalists and has offered one to everyone.
She really enjoys it and has won all except one that she has entered. The final of one was held in the Supreme Court which was a great experience for her.
There are regular networking evenings and social events at various chambers.
They are expected to do work in the community too although dd hasn't managed to get a spot for that yet.

I don't have any other unis to compare it to but so far I've been impressed with everything Sheffield has to offer.

As my DD didn’t do any mooting all her minis were down to her applications and cv. However she got pupillage from one of the chambers. That’s another thing. Networking. It’s vital. Getting through the door and impressing them @troppibambini6 That’s so important because they have quite a few mini pupillages throughout the year.

That must have been a lot of fun, mooting at the Supreme Court! It's an incredibly beautiful building apart from anything else. Congrats to your DD.

Great advice @TizerorFizz DDs are a mixture. Four she's won through mooting the other 6 through networking and emailing herself. Without being too specific her role within the law society involves a lot of networking and she's made a lot of contacts that's way.
You are right getting yourself out there is so important.

She's realistic though she will but everything into it but if she doesn't get pupillages. She will work and re try.

*pupillage

@AsTearsGoBy thank you she said it was an amazing experience.

@troppibambini6 Is she having a go at London? DD absolutely loves events at her Inn. More expensive to live in London of course but probably higher fees charged. DDs Inn has residential scholarships.

@TizerorFizz no she doesn't want to. She coming back to Manchester (where we live) and hoping to get something locally.

With ten mini pupillages in the bag it's hard to see that she won't get a full pupillage. Ten is extremely impressive.

DD had more than 10 but sometimes dc rule them out. However you only need one pupillage. @troppibambini6 Yes. I remember the Manchester convo now.

More than ten?! By 'sometimes DC rule them out' do you mean sometimes DC decide a set they've had a mini pupillage with isn't for them?

I can't remember how many mini pupillages my DC actually did in the end but I'm pretty sure not as many as ten. Seven maybe, at a guess.

You only need one (decent) tenancy Tizer. Pupillage is just the next step. It's tough for those who do their twelve months then don't get taken on.

@AsTearsGoBy time will tell I suppose. I think she's decided to throw everything at it. She said to me if she doesn't get it after doing everything she can it's not meant to be. She doesn't want to be left thinking what if I had done more I suppose.... and to be honest she really enjoying it (most of the time!)

Op apologies for the derailing. No more about dd. But basically Sheffield a good option imo as long as ok with a smaller city.

Yes apologies OP. It's very easy to slip off the rails on these threads.

This Sheffield Yr2 option is enough, on its own, to want to apply there!

Murder, Myth and Memory: A History of Jack the Ripper
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