Law at which?

[stubiff]

Any recommendations for Law from (only) these.
They all have the same tariff, that's why they are grouped.
City/campus doesn't matter.

University of Nottingham
University of York
University of Sheffield
University of Exeter
Cardiff University
University of Birmingham
Newcastle University
University of Southampton
University of Liverpool

Thanks, in advance.

Me too!

DD was not on the committee she chaired it. It was also the first ball the faculty had held. Ever. It was her idea. So venue, music, ticket, health and safety, catering and every single element went via her chairmanship. I accept some people think it’s nothing but she was praised for it and it was shortlisted for student event of the year. In terms of organising skills, negotiation etc it had value. Plus everyone enjoyed it! If you haven’t organised this sort of event from scratch, i guess it’s easy to think it’s just fun and meaningless. If you organise and source everything it says a bit more I think.

Yes sorry I meant chair. Chair is still on the committee!

(But definitely not the first such event, to give credit to your DD).

I used to be on a very small committee that chose all the trainees for a magic circle firm. One of our tiebreakers between candidates was which one had held a public-facing job, preferably retail or service industry. We particularly loved our trainees who had saturday jobs in mobile phone shops - if you could show you could get up at 8am every saturday/every day and negotiate quite complex contracts and sort out problems with often furious and often vulnerable members of joe public, sometimes with communication issues relating to language or learning or mental health issues, while negotiating fairly complex computer systems, then we pretty much knew you would be an unflappable problem-solver. But we were also very happy to see other retail jobs as well as hard work behind a bar or in a restaurant or cafe. I would have said that volunteering at citizen's advice or similar would also be good. But we always offered the TC roles to those with such public-facing work experience over those without, where a tie-break was needed.

Those graduates entering the workforce without any history of paid work are doing so with one hand tied behind their back, IMO.

I would have given zero credit to a ball committee chair I'm afraid. Sorry Tizer.

Adverts vary by needs of the team.
This is from a recent one by another team but similar.
GCSE English & Maths
Law Degree or equivalent
Experience working in a Legal environment
Experience working as part of a team
Strong work ethic and professional attitude
Ability to communicate effectively orally and in writing
Ability to plan and organise workload
IT skills

We score against the criteria to decide who comes to interview. Stronger candidates will have more and more varied examples so will score higher.
I can’t stress how inundated we are anytime we advertise an entry level role. I advertised a legal assistant role and got so many applicants from prestigious universities with 2.1/1st law degrees, some even had masters. No one without paid work made it to interview as their scores were pipped by those who did. Disabled candidates meeting all essential criteria get an interview.

@Delphigirl interesting magic circle also look for it. I’d give credit for ball chair, it certainly demonstrates skills but virtually all candidates have a similar school or hobby or uni role on their cv.

Good comments above. I am a solicitor with 4 solicitor children (my twins qualified last year). I really enjoy practising law and encourage others to do so. It is a great career. Go to the best university you can and get as much out of the experience as possible. 3 of my lawyer children went to Bristol (they all rejected Durham and chose Bristol just because we are bit closer to Bristol even though I am originally from the NE and my father and uncle went to Durham) and one to Nottingham University.

Of those on the list on the thread originally Exeter, Nottingham and York might be good (as indeed are many of the others). There is a reasonably useful although slightly old list here - https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

@Xenia
Thanks.
I had seen that report before and it’s the one Tizer has mentioned as well.
I think open days will probably be York, Nottingham and Sheffield. Exeter is a trek from us so depends when it is, could turn it into a summer hol!

I think it’s interesting that recruiters are looking for how someone gets skills and not actually looking for evidence that the candidates possess the skills. Other methods which are not paid work are also valid. I’ve articulated the skills demonstrated in setting up an inaugural ball and I’m assuming DDs pupilage committee thought differently, plus recognising her public facing voluntary work! It’s surely the skills that matter and less about how you get them? After all some grads just work for family firms and make little effort to obtain anything for themselves that requires effort and commitment but the recruitment gurus here think trumps all. I don’t agree.

I think there’s also a strong element of what you can do for others too. Depends on area of law, but giving your time also has its place. I don’t agree all applicants hold positions at uni. Nowhere near enough available for that to be true.

As a former MCIPD, I would strongly suggest employers need evidence of the skills they require and not make assumptions that one way they are possibly gained is better than another. Nothing is tested by assumptions. It’s very simplistic and not what I would advocate recruiters should do.

Also what’s the point of saying “experience of working in a legal environment” for grads? This presumably is designed to exclude grads who haven’t had an internship or are not working as a paralegal. So it’s clearly impossible for some grads to get anywhere but I assume they are told this before they apply. If so, the number of applications seem way too high or are they all totally speculative? This is the issue with 21,000 law degrees completed every year.

@TizerorFizz we do all recruitment on top of day job/management. No initial HR sift, no tests. It’s online application (there’s a job description and person specification listing essential and desirable criteria). Then myself and other manager sitting with the criteria and quickly reading what candidate put and scoring, it’s a few mins per application due to volume. So eg for team work Tracy who put ball committee gets 1 point for that, Sharon who put ball committee and McDonald’s gets 2 points.
Yes I’d expect anyone at 21/22 plus applying to have experience working in a legal environment - work experience, internship, vacation scheme, paid job, uni legal advice clinic etc.
It is nearly impossible to get foot in door hence large numbers of applications for legal admin. I advertised a temporary paralegal role for a short project this summer and had a recent Oxford law graduate apply.
Bar is totally different skill set to Solicitors so different recruitment processes.

Glad DD chose Bar! At least her skills were recognised. DD is on her Chambers pupillage committee so I’m hoping she’s looking for evidence of skills and not making snap judgements!

In terms of this thread, the OP is looking in detail at unis. I have said all along that this detail is somewhat misplaced. Doing a little job in a Saturday gets you in if you are the same on ranking as everyone else you are competing against. So we really have gone back to square 1. It’s all about the individual, not the uni, as I said. Although evidence says some uni grads do better than others but these are on the OPs list.

I am not sure many students are meeting the criteria for experience of the legal environment as a stand alone criteria. Obviously working in a cafe doesn’t meet that. I also feel sorry for grads going through this process. I believe firmly in judging evidence of skills as opposed to judging how they might be acquired and some methods preferred to others. How many applicants can ever work in a mobile phone shop? Hardly any.

Well there would have been no possibility whatsoever of any of my DC being able to work in a mobile phone shop (the nearest would have been over twenty miles away with a long and complicated journey). But while working in a cafe at weekends and in school holidays may not instill legal skills where none existed before, some DC do manage to have the latter while doing the former. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And having both clearly demonstrates more than just having a logical mind. If only the capacity to juggle time efficiently while still achieving the sort of results needed to get to the Bar/ top firms. You seem a bit sniffy about DC who get their hands dirty Tizer; it's good to see that others don't.

@AsTearsGoBy Homestly I’m not sniffy at all! I just feel there are alternative methods to obtain skills. It’s relatively easy for some dc to get a little weekend job, for others it’s not. Dc can do various things in the holidays and my DC did. However there’s nothing here where we live. There is no bus. So she had to wait until she could drive a car. She tried to get local work but there’s lots looking for it in the small town nearest to us so she found a volunteering role which I think others posting sneer at. DD did volunteer for weeks and weeks every holiday from uni. She did meet the public and turn up when required based on the rota. She gave talks to the public and fitted questions. So all I think is: there’s more than one way of getting skills and paid work is one option but not the only one. It’s a shame recruiters with no training don’t recognise that.

@TizerorFizz calling it 'a little weekend job' sounds very sniffy! It's not at all easy for young people to get paid work; my dd applied for well over a hundred jobs before getting her caring job in her university town. That takes perseverance.

Juggling paid work alongside academic study is also a worthwhile skill in itself; this isn't the case with volunteering, as you can choose when you do this and presumably your dd didn't do it at the same time as her uni finals, or A Levels. So whilst of course it's valid to say that volunteering develops and demonstrates certain skills, paid work potentially shows that you can balance work and study. Ds worked 16 hours a week at a supermarket around his A Levels (as well as doing an hour or two at day at the gym!). Dd is working two jobs (about to be 3, as she just secured another!) in her final year at uni.

Students who don't need to work are privileged. It certainly shows that they're proactive if they then go out and do voluntary roles - I would value that as a recruiter. But I would probably give more credit to regular, paid and contracted work. But in both cases, it would be about the skills they developed and how they communicated those.

@TizerorFizz
You're very good at turning threads into what DD has done/not done. If she's done it, it must be relevant, if she's not done it, then it won't/shouldn't be a factor. And, although Law, in a different leg to what I've said is relevant.

Re 'Glad DD chose Bar! At least her skills were recognised.' - of the two who have commented on it, one said they would take the Ball chair into account, you can't generalise like that.
And, what we're talking about is the initial filtering. Do you know for a fact that they took those skills into account pre interview stage, prob not.
Let's move on.

A paid job is good, volunteering is good, legal work experience is good. Showing various skills is good, regardless of where you get them.

Re 'OP is looking in detail at unis. I have said all along that this detail is somewhat misplaced.' - which bit is looking in detail. I have listed two groups of prob all the options (except Scotland and Ireland) at those tariffs.

Re 'It’s all about the individual, not the uni, as I said. Although evidence says some uni grads do better than others but these are on the OPs list.' - assume you mean Unis of roughly the same tariff, not all unis (which is against what you've said before - all degrees are not equal).

You're also very good at taking a comment and treating it like the be-all-and-end all. The mobile phone job, from someone, was just an example of a paid job, they're not saying that they want that or nothing.

@stubiff I might remind you this thread is full of what dc have done. It’s a conversation. I think you need to look at the mobile phone shop comment again. It was written as trumping other jobs. It’s not just me who has pointed out that’s not possible for lots of people. Your dc will undoubtedly be a great success at everything so I suggest he plough his furrow according to his preferences and see how it goes.

There are an awful lot of people looking for jobs as paralegals and trainee solicitors at the moment- absolute glut including of very good people and great international candidates too. I have probably said it before but look at the linkedin profiles searching trainee solicitor and name of some big firm and see what comes up in terms of the work experience of those people.

So, looking at a regional firm (top 60-ish overall), that maybe DS might aspire to.
An example (at the first point of being able to apply for a TC) is -
AStar,A,A at A-level, 1st in Law from Liverpool, part time front of house in a restaurant, part time CAB advisor, part time legal assistant.

And before anyone says, yes, it's only one example (and not everyone can do all of that!) but would guess it's fairly representative, and most importantly, shows the types of things that DC will need to do or at least consider.

@Cakeandusername
Out of interest, roughly what proportion of applicants are post graduating (say, being a paralegal first) or at least after the first point of being able to apply for a TC). Due to the competition, there must be quite a few second/third time applicants, and they, obv, could have an advantage over undergraduates as they will/may have full-time work experience.

Of the 3 in my team, 2 it’s their first legal paid job. But yes working as a paralegal very common.
SQE is new and will obviously take a few years to see how things develop.
Some firms are still offering training contracts but there’s no need for a formal training contract now. 2 years qualifying work experience and pass SQE1 & 2 and you are admitted as a solicitor.
All 3 of mine will qualify is different ways.
First via funded post degree apprenticeship - LLM for SQE prep at local uni and entitled to 1 day off a week to study.
Second via online SQE prep course and works ft - self funded.
Third has self funded LPC before coming to us and is eligible to do old style Training contract under transition arrangements no need for SQE.

For years it was a very set route of law degree or degree and postgraduate law conversion then LPC and 2 year training contract. Even if you worked as a paralegal you still needed a training contract.

Now With SQE all firms/organisations are doing things slightly differently. Beware of outdated advice.

A large well known regional firm near me have just launched their Trainee recruitment with two options.
Either Trainee Solicitor (Period of recognised training/QWE) - applicant needs a law degree or degree/law conversion and SQE 1 & 2 pass to apply.
Or Trainee Solicitor (Graduate solicitor apprenticeship) person joins with law degree or degree/law conversion and firm fund LLM/SQE - local uni 1 day a week.
The firm also offers 6 year Solicitor Apprenticeships to join post A levels.
So 3 different ways to be a trainee solicitor at one firm.

Yes, like the idea of the Graduate Solicitor Apprenticeship (and Soli App) as you know you're 'in' (as long as you pass all the things you're supposed to pass!).
If DC don't secure a TC at Uni, there seems to be lots of uncertainty and worry about what the next steps will be post graduating, the funding of that, what study/roles would be best and how to go about securing a TC in the future.
Note - the average age at qualification is now 30 (for various other reasons as well, of course).

A source of frustration for me has been staff are ineligible for graduate apprenticeship if they have LPC/SQE1. For funding reasons you can only have a degree nothing higher to be eligible for graduate apprenticeship.
I’m not sure of stats but outside city law it was always fairly common to self fund LPC. You can get student finance LLM masters funding for postgraduate SQE prep and exam fees are approx £5000 for both exams. So self funding is an option.
Lots will graduate and if no trainee job work as a paralegal and keep applying or see what opportunities present at firm they are with.
Do look at all trainee options - government legal, local government legal, CPS etc not just firms.

The SQE pass rate is around 50% There were reports of firms dropping trainees or revoking training contract offers for those who had failed no second chances in legal press last year. There was a lot of backlash though.

True and same in my day when we started our training contract in Sept and results were out in November. I remember one young man in your cohort who had to leave as he failed. stubiff - the example you give of the high A level grades, first from Liverpool and having worked in university term time or holidays in a legal advice centre etc is pretty accurate of the sort of person firms want.

It was the same when I entered the profession - high A level grades preferred, showing commitment to law (I volunteered at university in the legal advice clinic), high university grades etc

I have always said the biggest divide in law is not between solicitors and barristers but between high paid commercial work and other legal work. Both types of work and careers have their place but students do need to know how to get into the kind of work they want to do. The big pay in City firms remains a system in most cases where you do a 2 year training contract so you gain experience in at least 4 different areas of law and are trained in each of those departments and when you qualify people are hiring you (if you don't stay on) in part because of the training you got during those 2 years. Also the different areas of law (within that one firm) enable people to see what areas they might like for the future too so I remain very keen that young people get a chance to work in different areas of law during their training. I did litigation, property, taxation and company/commercial.