MFL year abroad in France

[AfterLeavingMrMacKenzie]

All being well, DD will be going to study in France this September for the 3rd year of her degree.

The university has put on a couple of information sessions for the students and given them a list of institutions with which they have exchange programmes.

They've said that with regards to funding (Turing) they don't know how much will be available but it won't be much and they don't know when they'll be allocating it.

I'd love to chat with other parents whose DC are doing a year in France or did one in the past.

DD doesn't have an EU passport.

Infinitely more challenging to study French law within the context of a dual English and French law degree than to study French within the context of an MFL degree - hence the A level requirements being higher.

@TizerorFizz yes dd has applied for Oxford and had to submit 3 pieces of written work as well as do their entrance test which sounded tough. Also interviewed in both languages in the same interview & translations to complete in real time as part of the interview. We are as English as they come & Predicted 3 A stars. She's by no means a low standard, and still no guarantee they'll give her an offer.

@nutsandraisinsrock DD got an offer and it sounds like not much has changed. I think DD did translations and that formed parting the interviews. All a bit stressful. Fingers crossed! DD hadn’t done any MFLs until 11. They should take quick learning into account!

A summary of my DD's experience, which was mixed. She spent her year abroad studying at a university in a city in southern France. The admin took most of the Summer - filling in badly designed forms with me helping by making phonecalls, two trips to sort out her visa, applying for a European health card https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/healthcare-abroad/apply-for-a-free-uk-global-health-insurance-card-ghic/, finding accommodation, insuring the accommodation. The university left students to sort themselves out and no help was available.

Her first term was grim - pokey, run-down accommodation with poor lighting, being harassed by the bus driver on her way to the university, ignored by the French students (my DD took the only place available to a student from her UK university). We said at Christmas that she didn't have to go back if it really felt impossible but she did go back and things improved - better weather, friendships with other international students, volunteering at an international church, visits from friends from England.

Did it fulfil the aim of improving her French fluency? Yes, without a doubt. Ironically, to make the timetable work, she had to read lots of English fiction in English and write about it in French, the reverse of what she has to do at Oxford. She claimed Turing funding on her return and received a four-figure sum. She's going back later this year for a wedding but is quite clear she never wants to live in France. It's also noticeable that she is much more capable when navigating the challenges grown-ups have to deal with - money, insurance, landlords, estate agents.

there are of course those secret bilinguals (Granny was French, mother was brought up bilingually, whole family speaks French and goes to France all the time to hang out with cousins etc even though on paper they look completely British) who use their language skills to get into Oxbridge

But there are definitely also students who learnt all their French at school, never went abroad until an exchange trip in Year 13, and took an ab initio second language. It seems pointless to be irritated at both the low language skills of those students and the secret fluency of the others.

Oops, maybe not Year 13 (getting my teens and year groups mixed) but you get what I mean.

@IdaGlossop how recently was that? I'm glad it got better!

@TizerorFizz dd is the same - never did languages at primary school so doing 2 at a-level is pretty rare - only one in her year of over 200 students, and there's only one in the year below (who has a house in France!)
I'd like to think they might take that into account but I'm not anyone ever asked her!

@nutsandraisinsrock it was last year. She's in her final year now and is in regular contact with the friends she made there. I remind her occasionally that establishing yourself in a foreign country and conducting your life in a language not your mother tongue is an impressive achievement and one only a minority of graduates is able to offer future employers.

MFL acquisition is just the tool to allow original source study of literature or other cultural material in the more rigorous degrees. Similar to a classics degree. I guess that is also the motivation for Italian being popular with art history or music students. None of those options are recognised as easy depending on the university by employers.
The upside of the organisation of the year abroad since Turing and Brexit is lots more material for MFL students during interview competency type questions.

@TizerorFizz she doesn't know what she wants to do yet but she isn't going to drift. Her bf is studying engineering. They've been together since 6th form and chose universities 1 hour apart so they could carry on their relationship (if they want to) but have their independence and make new friends. God - I wish I'd been so pragmatic as a teen! Who knows how they'll feel in September.

What a lovely post. Most of it would apply to my DD as well. I'm funding her what will probably amount to around £25,000 and then the rest she'll owe. In return she'll have four years to learn, grow, experience, hopefully make friends for life, maybe become fluent in another language, and perhaps develop the kind of curiosity and learning skills that make life more interesting and worthwhile

Best wishes to your DD @HPFA I hope she has the time of her life on her year abroad and, yes, to developing a curiosity that makes life more interesting and worthwhile.

Thanks @IdaGlossop - that's an interesting post.

It's easy to romanticise a year in France but it will certainly present challenges for our DC. And I shall really miss DD so challenges for some parents as well.

'Twas ever thus, hence the British being bad at MFL and not very good at analysing literature in other languages either because if your language skills aren't very good it's unlikely that your broader cultural understanding will be all that great either. It's also important to be aware that it is not because students don't find courses easy that they are necessarily rigorous and deliver graduates with excellent skills (be those language skills, intercultural skills, analytical and writing skills in English etc).

I regularly meet British diplomats who have language degrees and further expensive language training paid for by the public purse. Rarely are their spoken language skills anything other than painful to the ear.

And so it goes on! Relentless criticism.

Well I think it's a damn sight preferable that they can speak languages other than English at all, compared to most Brits, in spite of your damning indictment of their efforts.

However, I'm not regularly meeting British diplomats of course.

I recall years back being deeply impressed by the owner of a shop in Gibraltar, who switched effortlessly between about 5 languages. To my 'rusty' ear and as someone who probably sounds "painful" he seemed pretty damn fluent!

I can only imagine the disdain I would evoke when I try valiantly to recall my degree French from 40 years ago, or my A level Spanish, but you know what, I can make myself understood and my efforts are appreciated by native speakers!

I did a French O-level and then picked it up again after forty years.

I will never become anywhere near fluent but it's still hugely increased my enjoyment on holidays. Lots of the signage and information in museums and galleries is only in French so I learn much more than if I only had English. I've discovered a couple of enjoyable French TV series and am currently reading a good French novel.

So maybe MFL will bring richness and enjoyment to your kids life even if they don't ever speak like a native.

It would be slightly easier to improve your spoken French if most of the people you met in France didn't insist on speaking English to you!

<It's also important to be aware that it is not because students don't find courses easy that they are necessarily rigorous>
That is self evident as it depends on the match between a student’s capabilities and a degree.

The British and Americans are pretty good at academic analysis of literature, history, films and philosophy by international university rankings and publications. And they have some talented natural linguists without the early schooling advantages or immersion of other countries as evidenced by DCs in this thread. So all is not doom and gloom as long as UK and USA universities continue attracting native speakers to aid language acquisition.

BTW diplomats are politicians and sometimes apparently poor verbal language skills are a useful dissimulation tool.

I know, it's so maddening!! They want to practice their English but you want to practice your French lol!

I did have an entire conversation once with a lady selling scarves near to the Tuileries gardens. She was from Brittany and spoke no English. She was very complimentary about my shit French but we understood each other!!

I've spent some holidays in Rome in the last year as one DD was studying there. I really feel at a disadvantage in a country where I don't speak the language!! DD did Duolingo and paid for Italian lessons before going there and is perfectly able to converse.

I can understand a bit of Italian written down with my knowledge of French and Spanish. I think a little bit of a language is way better than none, and I did French, Spanish, German and Latin to O level back in the day, French and Spanish to A level, and French to degree.

I have a DD who teaches MFL. We went to Valencia a couple of summers ago and people were constantly surprised that she could speak Spanish to them (her Spanish is obviously better than mine!)

I definitely want to revisit my languages when I retire. I have always wanted to learn Italian and don't think it should be so difficult seeing as I have already learned two Romance languages!

@sendsummer Until Mandelson was appointed, all ambassadors and diplomats working in our embassies and consulates were/are civil servants. And I know a couple of them. One has a degree in MFLs! She’s a retired ambassador.

I once managed a 20 minute conversation with a lady on a train between Lyon and Vienne - I was proud but exhausted at the end.

I did some Italian pre Covid for a planned holiday (still in aveyance). It's not difficult to get a passive understanding if you know other romance languages but the grammar is unforgiving. it did mean French grammar felt a bit easier by comparison.

@TizerorFizz yes of course for diplomats being civil servants, I used the term politician in its wider sense.

@sendsummer Of course. I don’t expert many politicians have MFL degrees.

@TizerorFizz It's not criticism. I am one of those people with a UK MFL degree! They were always a year longer than other UG degrees, though of course once upon a time many students got means-tested grants and fees weren't a thing. Then Erasmus made the year abroad much easier (I had to arrange my own with no support from the university) but costs started to creep up. And now costs are really high AND there is no Erasmus AND students needs visas AND it is much harder than it was pre-Erasmus to enrol in a course if it's not part of an exchange programme.

The share of UK undergraduates doing MFL degrees has been in pretty steady decline for a long time. The main reasons for this are the decline of MFL at GCSE (thanks to Tony Blair) and the relatively poor labour markets opportunities for MFL graduates. Obviously that decline translates into less competitive entry standards. Academics, for all sorts of reasons, like to do niche research rather than put their minds to their undergraduates' language acquisition skills.

I think speaking foreign languages is great. I speak lots of languages as do all my family. But I do think that, as a UK undergraduate degree, MFL is full of "issues".

DD2 spent a year in Rome and I was proud that she learned some Italian prior to going. I thought she'd be reasonably fluent after the year but she was shy to use it and so many people spoke English!

She had a talent for languages but due to timetabling she only got to do French to GCSE and Spanish to AS.

@mainecooncatonahottinroof Was that at degree level at a uni? Or just a fun year? At uni you have to improve your Italian.