MFL year abroad in France

[AfterLeavingMrMacKenzie]

All being well, DD will be going to study in France this September for the 3rd year of her degree.

The university has put on a couple of information sessions for the students and given them a list of institutions with which they have exchange programmes.

They've said that with regards to funding (Turing) they don't know how much will be available but it won't be much and they don't know when they'll be allocating it.

I'd love to chat with other parents whose DC are doing a year in France or did one in the past.

DD doesn't have an EU passport.

I said the source is IFS. This isn’t uni. It’s a chat! It not an academic paper and don’t be so bloody rude. Do your own research! Lazy!

@TizerorFizz Stop getting your knickers in a twist!

How rude!!

There's nothing rude about asking someone who doesn't understand their own data why they don't. Trying to help someone who is confused about their own argument is just... helpful.

@TizerorFizz Thanks for sharing that screen shot - interesting and IFS research is usually of a reasonable quality. It clearly makes the point MFL graduates (on average) are half way up - or down - the pack as to future earnings.

It's the way you did it. I don't see anything wrong with the graphic and I have two degrees...!

@Juja I’ve actually seen other data with it slightly higher up. It’s also higher than some stem subjects.

I have a feeling (could be wrong) that MFL degrees are women heavy and that makes a difference regarding earnings. Like many degrees that are not stem, it’s really up to dc what they do with them but a MFL degree doesn’t prevent any career really. Our former neighbour’s DS did MFL at Cambridge and went to Magic Circle to be a solicitor and DDs friends have a myriad of jobs - mostly not using languages! However I would say careers are worth thinking about but as DD was doing 2 courses and a training year after a 4 year degree she wanted to crack on and get earning.

Women MFL graduates do far less badly in labour markets than male MFL graduates, for whom the return on investment is negative.

The big issue with MFL is that the standards are low (lots of MFL graduates just aren't fluent) and students don't learn directly marketable skills. If you look at degrees like Economics, plenty of those graduates are multilingual anyway. MFL graduates can't compete. Also, if they have paid for 4 years of university and have consequently bigger loan repayments, that's a real issue. TBH there are more cost and time efficient ways of gaining fluency in a language than on a UK MFL degree.

@Ceramiq What is it you don’t understand about uk MFL degrees! They are NOT vocational. They can be but most do not treat them as such. The language element isn’t all the degree requires. Neither would MFL grads expect to get the jobs economics grads target. Do you not understand the skills conveyed by studying for an academic degree? Once again: it’s not vocational.

How do you think my DD with a MFL degree became a barrister? Or indeed friends with Classics, History, Music, English and Philosophy degrees who did the same? How do you think they did that without a Law degree? I’ll give you a clue: an academic first degree and a great deal of intelligence and intellect they can bring to their chosen career. A good MFL degree holder has lots of options and can earn highly! As DD does.

@Ceramiq maybe the type of person who does economics at Uni is much more likely to be seeking a high paying career than someone who reads MFL. It doesn't mean MFL graduates are less intelligent. Also plenty of poor quality economists among economics graduates but good at getting into consultancy roles.

My great grandfather was a modern linguist over 100 years ago. He became a Headmaster - probably didn't earn as much as if he'd gone into business but may have contributed more...

Salary levels aren't the only gauge of success and degrees are about more than future earnings.

DD is mediocre by the standards of this board. Hard work got her into what I suppose is a middling RG. She chose the two subjects she enjoyed at school for her degree with no career in mind. Once again she's having to go above and beyond for every mark, whilst having a very fun social life, a long term boyfriend, a part time job, lovely friends at home.

I hope she has a lovely time abroad, improving her French, meeting new people, becoming even more independent and travelling in Europe. She deserves it.

I'm increasing my hours to help fund it as we're not flush. She won't join a Magic Circle firm or one of the Big 4 (or is it Four?) but I hope she finds a fulfilling, well paid career and has good memories of her 4 years at uni.

That's what university is about in my opinion. Others will disagree.

@AfterLeavingMrMacKenzie Exactly. I was just trying to say MFL grads can be what they want to be. There’s no particular ceiling. Going abroad greatly improves confidence and self reliance. My only advice would be is that she should start going to careers fairs and think about life after uni. Where? What? And How? Most people who drift haven’t given any thought to a career. She has a job so that’s a great start. Wherever she goes in France it will build resilience and it will be fun. What’s her boyfriend doing? Is she ready to spend time away from him?

I understand plenty of things about UK MFL degrees - I have one myself (First Class with Distinction in the era when 2% of the cohort got a First), my sister did her Part I in MFL before changing subject, our maternal grandmother did an MFL degree in the days when very few women went to Cambridge. All my family speaks lots of languages. It's an area I know masses about and I see UK MFL graduates unable to earn their living and needing to do further study (as I did) all the time. Which is all fine when you aren't paying for all of that, but unfortunately the way things have gone individuals do have to pay - either upfront or with a loan - and the MFL year abroad has a real, serious issue of making the VFM of MFL degrees for individuals a whole lot worse. I am shocked that many universities do not have the moral fibre to make this clear when recruiting students and I think there are serious grounds for accusing them of misrepresentation and/or misselling.

Furthermore - my sister, because she has a PhD in a Humanities subject, has a lot of friends in her generation that have had careers in academia at Oxbridge and top RG universities. She is consistently shocked at the low standards they accept both when recruiting MFL students (but they need bums on seats to keep their jobs) and that pass for language learning at university. Academics/academic departments are in the business of researching esoteric theories and subject niches and by and large leave language acquisition up to students, at their own expense and outside the curriculum. It's not a good situation and it's interesting to perceive how MFL academics' own children don't become fluent in MFL.

by and large leave language acquisition up to students, at their own expense and outside the curriculum

Definitely agree with this!

Are the standards really that low? I know grade requirements at unis aren't super high (dd for example has an offer from Edinburgh for ABB) but I know the grade boundary for A star, for example, is ridiculously high (over 90%) which doesn't help recruitment at a-level as so hard to get the top grades.

the MFL year abroad has a real, serious issue of making the VFM of MFL degrees for individuals a whole lot worse

However: it has been utterly transformational for my student child, in a way that university itself wasn't.

What a lovely post. Most of it would apply to my DD as well.

I'm funding her what will probably amount to around £25,000 and then the rest she'll owe.

In return she'll have four years to learn, grow, experience, hopefully make friends for life, maybe become fluent in another language, and perhaps develop the kind of curiosity and learning skills that make life more interesting and worthwhile.

Of course it's possible to develop these skills outside of university. But as we all know it becomes a lot harder when you're tired and stressed with a full time job.

For many of us uni will be the only time we really have to devote to ourselves and our own development - regardless of future earnings that's worth something.

I entirely agree that spending a year or more in another country is transformational. If UK universities are going to make the MFL third year abroad the entire responsibility of the student, which some are (both organisationally and financially), there are other, better ways of acquiring marketable skills and learning a language than as part of an MFL degree.

Yes, they are very low and MFL academics know this. At Oxbridge they try very hard to lure overseas students with far better language skills onto MFL courses in order to raise the bar for everyone and there are of course those secret bilinguals (Granny was French, mother was brought up bilingually, whole family speaks French and goes to France all the time to hang out with cousins etc even though on paper they look completely British) who use their language skills to get into Oxbridge/the better RG when they are unlikely to get in for another subject.

DS studies Law with French. Strangely he needed an A in his French A level for all five uni offers when the offer for straight MFL's only required a B. He certainly has no hidden French granny and has only had a couple of holidays in France , before that age of 6, although I do have GCSE french if that counts.

@mummyinbeds Those grades are a reflection of the Law element though. It reflects the number applying.

The idea that they are all low quality is also demeaning and necessary. As I said earlier, high value jobs are available to those who have the attributes necessary and the ambition. MFLs also hone skills very similar to history grads and certainly can compete for very good jobs if they wish. There is an issue with many native speakers on the courses and thus means anyone getting As is decent, plus they will have other A levels. Oxford test applicants and I think pre evaluate written work prior to interview so I don’t accept their students are of a not good enough standard.

Im getting sick of repeating that most MFL grads don’t use their languages after graduating. A MFL grad can go into loads of careers so who gives a flying f-ck about how fluent they are? In employer terms - very few. Useful for holidays but all the other skills learnt, development of personality and confidence mean more. No one should be put off doing a MFL degree because they think others get better jobs. They don’t.

@TizerorFizz whilst I agree that high grades are reflective of the law element, he had two AAB offers where French still had to be an A. No unis required a A* in French though.
I also agree that MFL's are far more than the language skills. Even on his Law and language degree, DS studies literature, film, politics, history, french culture etc etc. Studying law in France, fully in French is definitely character building and I'm sure will help with whatever career he decides to follow.

@mummyinbeds I don’t have an O level in French! However with lots of EU people married to UK people, there are lots who speak MFL from birth. The playing field is not even. What did the other unis want for Law? AAA or lower? Did they lower offer with French included? However I still think it’s applicant numbers/calibre driven. If they know they can fill a course they can keep offers high.

@TizerorFizz I can't remember all his offers now but the uni he is at required AAA for straight Law and for Law with French and French Law (or German or Spanish). It is a specific degree program rather than being a french bolt on, but there are only four students in his year group. Obviously they study law with the huge law cohort. His AAB insurance offer was a grade lower, with an A in French. Judging by how many A* students don't get law offers from that uni, I think they struggle to fill the language part of the course.