"3 prestigious universities about to go bust" - on Radio 5 live this morning..

[devilsadvocate77]

...heard a chap who was contributing as part of Nicky's slot (still on) say that three unis are about to go bust, not to mention the many others who are running at a deficit.

Nicky asked if he would name them but he refused.

Any ideas??

Things change. Bristol and Exeter have slipped down. Loughborough and Surrey have risen up. Some poly's excel in specialised courses.

The only reason Surrey is higher than Exeter in the CUG rankings is student satisfaction which is easy to manipulate. Entry standards, staff to student ratio and research quality are all much lower.

UCLAN is consulting on withdrawing 9 courses but I wouldn’t say it is ‘prestigious’. Durham has seemingly had new library, halls, law building, union building etc in the past few years.

But for undergraduates this is a more important and more relevant measure

Sad times. And it’s often MFL courses which seem to be the first to go, guess they are expensive to run if not many students enrolling. But sad for those students who do want to do MFL.

Some poly's excel in specialised courses.

Polys existed for technical courses meeting employer demands - that was always their thing and they were good at it. ‘Old’ universities were about research into pure subjects with a bit of teaching on the side.

This in bucketloads.

Sadly even a lot of the practical college courses don't run as not enough people sign up for them. My youngest brother wanted to become a plumber 15 years ago but gave up as the college scrapped the course 3 years in a row as not enough students enrolled to make it worth running. He was a fee paying student too. The same happens to a cousin that wanted to be a carpenter - he got 2 years into the course then failed as couldn't find an apprenticeship in a 30 mile radius so he could do the practical side of the diploma.

We definitely still need builders, roofers, decorators, electricians, plumbers and every other trade - where are all the good quality courses for this?

In my town they run a few but they are full of reluctant GCSE failing pupils so they aren't attractive to kids that want to succeed in it. They are put off by the vaping, swearing, types - honestly this is why most kids in our town do A levels.
They are seen as a 'safer' group to mix with for a 16-18 year old.

I'm encouraging my lad to seek a trade and find a good local company to train him rather than push him to go to uni. By the time he's 20 he'll be 100K better off than his peers.

Trades pay really well too if you are honest and reliable, and you can be self employed. Win/win.

The bonus is that the entire extended family benefits from a tradesman in the family. If only the rest of my family had skills to share we'd never need to spend money on plumbers, electricians, roofer again!!

I don't understand how denying young people the chance to get uni degrees ("make them go to technical college instead") would be hugely cheaper and save lots of money.

Or how it would mean that those allowed to go to Uni would then be able to be there for less money per head.
j
How would the deprived-of-Uni-young-people pay for their technical courses? Would these technical courses all get everyone well qualified to work in 1 year using cheap equipment, maybe?

The not-allowed-Uni people could all train up to do social care, I guess? That seems cheap in materials, and only a very short technical course, mostly training on the job, I suppose?

How would the privileged-to-go-to-Uni pay for their courses? If only elite group then I can't see no tuition situation returning, and country can't afford them either, so would everyone start to pay the full true cost, which I guess is around £16k/year, out of own private funds?

For 16-18 year olds, technical Diplomas and Btec's etc are usually free, as are A levels.

At 18, the A level students go to uni and pay, the tech college students get a job/apprenticeship - they get paid.

Uni students are typically ready to start work at 21 (£80K in debt)
Tech students start work at 18, after their college course (no debt)

deprived-of-Uni-young-people
privileged-to-go-to-Uni

You write as though these groups do not currently exist, and as if it the “deprived-of-Uni-young-people” are automatically worse off because of it.

OK, let's say there's a big move of students not going to university but going into HE college instead to get technical diplomas, BTECs etc. Where's the money going to come from to fund these HE students? Colleges are at least as poorly funded as universities, if not even worse, and they don't even have the benefit of trying to attract overseas students and their higher fees, or getting research grants.

Not all courses are three years

Ok, so the idea is that they all finish classroom learning by age 18 & then go into apprenticeships.

Does that mean Uni would be a path ONLY for ...
medical doctors?
some kinds of engineers...
Lawyers.

Is that all? Would any other jobs would still require Uni degrees besides those?
Teaching secondary & older, maybe, should require a Uni degree?

I guess the thinking is that nurses and paramedics and physiotherapists and economists and could all come be produced via the apprenticeship system?

For 16-18 year olds, technical Diplomas and Btec's etc are usually free, as are A levels.

At 18, the A level students go to uni and pay, the tech college students get a job/apprenticeship - they get paid.

They're not free though are they? It's just that the student doesn't pay.

You can call it tech college, uni, poly, college, apprenticeship, whatever you want. It still costs.

I don't understand when people argue that we should go back to the uni/poly split. It makes no difference what the institution is called - it still needs resourcing and someone has to pay - be it tax payers, student, employer or a combination of those.

£80k in debt

@TidydeskTidymind surely you know that isn’t the case? Why the exaggeration?

Lawyers have long been able to qualify via professional exams - now via apprenticeships

Nursing and paramedics didn’t used to be degree courses.

Medicine is being trialled as a graduate apprenticeship (which like other graduate apprenticeships involves a degree)

Actually it used to be the case in many professions to be able to qualify via professional exams taken whilst working. It is relatively recently that this has become uncommon or replaced with an apprenticeship.

Ok - 'free at the point of service for 16-18 year olds'.

I think everyone knows that education is a cost to the country. Which is why is should be used to skill up the population, not provide pointless qualifications that aren't actually needed for most work.

Given that the costs for university education is partly offset by the £9,250 a year student fees, plus the £30k+ fees from overseas students, plus the money that comes in from research grants, how do you see that balancing out compared to a big increase in HE education that benefits from none of those?

Yes, you're absolutely right. I just pulled that figure as a rough guess.

I've just looked and the average student loan is £45K straight after graduation.
Not sure what the final amount repaid is after interest though.

Still a scary sum for a 21 year old.

Won’t be Goldsmiths.

It has now risen to £48,470. And that is just student loan debt, not overdrafts or credit cards.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2xxp2gv4d1o

Yeah, it's just pie in the sky bonkers

I find the whole devaluing of higher education and further education incredibly depressing. We need BOTH a highly educated workforce AND a highly skilled workforce and both of these things need significant government investment for the good of all of us.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01079/#:~:text=Currently%20£20%20billion%20per,)%20by%20the%20late%2D2040s.

Stats update from House of Commons library - although the interest rates have dropped since that was published in the summer.

I thought Durham was doing very well. They seem to have lots of international students.
BTEC are only the same as A Levels. Don’t go any higher. Apprenticeship’s are hard to get especially level 3 .