University fees about to increase

[Onemorestepintheworld]

An announcement is expected today. www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c0qdgndz5wzt Any bets? I reckon £12k pa

@cantkeepawayforever Thats what I’m trying to get at. It’s not a given that all research is brilliant and makes a difference. If the best research is not acted upon what difference has it made? We research into lots and lots of things but do we see improvement? Not sure we do. However I do think scrutiny and outcomes actually matter or is it just a job? A nice thing to do and get someone else’s money to do it.

Of course research should be scrutinised, that's a really important part of the process.

Not all research is of high quality and the importance of the research can often be subjective! You might not see the value or the point but that's not a reason to dismiss whole subject areas.

There is a difference between something being capable of making a difference and of being useful and something being easily exploited for a profit. The latter is more likely to “make a difference,” even if harmful, because you might never make a profit from the former.

But you seem to be of the view that medical research is ‘good’ by definition ( or you did, until challenged) and that research into careers choice is ‘driven by a PP’s own ideas and thus worthless’ (because it dies not accord with your anecdotal personal experience).

I would agree entirely that all research should be scrutinised and peer-reviewed; would suggest that it can often take many years for even the best research to be implemented; and wonder what particular expertise you bring so that you can judge pp’s research into careers as being ‘wrong’?

@SerenityNowSerenityNow
i find it surprising that although you work at a university, you have so much time to post on mumsnet.
Maybe you could use this time to the research spending per student in universities in Europe or more importantly use your time to teach your students.
Please keep an open mind to whether low value degrees are really benefiting students if it is combined with a lot of debt. What would it feel like to you to have £40,000 of debt when you are 35 when you now have a family, a mortgage etc. but you are only earning £40,000? Consider being in your students' shoes in the future. Remember that with inflation and interest that debt keeps going up.
Consider whether your students might have been better going straight into work, apprenticeship or a degree apprenticeship. Imagine yourself as them in the future.

No more than others who have posted with anecdotal views that are not subject to such scrutiny. In my opinion that’s what a discussion is about. A exchange of views. Not so called experts (nominated by themselves) always being right and never listening to any other point of view that differs from their own. It’s an interesting trait in researchers and uni lecturers. I don’t know why we just don’t have a Lecturer’s thread where you ban other voices. Just like unis do, It is a huge shame you keep asking for evidence on a chat forum. Rather sidesteps the purpose of it but boosts your self appointed grandiose positions and demonstrates the ability to belittle other views. Views you might just find are valid.

It doesn’t matter - in any practical sense - about the total value of the debt. The rate of repayment is fixed - above the threshold - and it is the amount taken into account when calculating affordability of mortgages etc.

In practical terms, it is a graduate tax.

i find it surprising that although you work at a university, you have so much time to post on mumsnet.

Not that it is ANYTHING to do with you but I'm currently on an international trip on behalf of my university. The time difference, trouble sleeping, travel between countries/cities, hours in hotel rooms as I'm travelling alone means I have time.

Maybe you could use this time to the research spending per student in universities in Europe or more importantly use your time to teach your students.

I'm aware of what universities in Europe spend on their students. What is the relevance of that here?
And what makes you think I'm not teaching my students? What an odd comment.

Please keep an open mind to whether low value degrees are really benefiting students if it is combined with a lot of debt.
Considering I spend a significant amount of time looking at and trying to improve Graduate Outcomes this is something I'm acutely aware of.
I've implemented a number of strategies in my faculty which reviews our curriculum and portfolio with Graduate Outcomes in mind. I've argued against developing courses which, although they have mass appeal and would bring in lots of students , have poor outcomes. I don't always win that argument.

What would it feel like to you to have £40,000 of debt when you are 35 when you now have a family, a mortgage etc. but you are only earning £40,000? Consider being in your students' shoes in the future. Remember that with inflation and interest that debt keeps going up.

Do you understand that universities have no control over this? We didn't decide to introduce fees, we're working within a financial system which has been imposed upon us.

Consider whether your students might have been better going straight into work, apprenticeship or a degree apprenticeship. Imagine yourself as them in the future.

I agree that university is not for everyone. I would love to see more degree apprenticeships and more funding for technical education.
I think some (most 🤷🏼‍♀️) schools do their students a disservice by not promoting apprenticeships on an equal footing with university. Provider Access Legislation is supposed ensure this happens by my experience suggests it not happening enough.
I believe in the transformative nature of higher education and believe that anyone who has the ability and desire to go university should have the opportunity to do so. That's not the same as thinking everyone should go.....

@Runemum
My DC would love to get a degree apprenticeship for Sep ‘26, but they are so hard to secure. He’ll 90%+ be going to Uni.

And, as with all taxes, rates can be changed, as can the point at which they kick in. It’s a debt related to borrowing for a specific purpose, expected to be paid back by the specific person who borrowed it but with generous breaks in repayment and an eventual writing off at the end of your likely working life if you still owe money by then - at the moment. It’s also a “tax” you can avoid if you pay off the loan. And the loan is a better deal for the very rich or very poor than for the majority in the middle. Also, Government has previously sold student loan debt to private companies. I don’t trust all future governments to do what is in the interests of my student children and would rather they do not have a lifetime of the pretend graduate tax hanging around their necks, with their names written on it, if they don’t have to.

@SerenityNowSerenityNow
I respect that you are considering graduate outcomes over mass appeal.
Glad to know someone is doing this.
I feel sad that you aren't always listened to.

@stubiff
Yes, I have heard they are hard to secure, which is a pity. I really want my son to get one. Not that he is old enough yet-he hasn't done his GCSEs yet!😂

Thank you.
It's a challenging balancing act for universities though so I get it.

More students = more income and if you're just looking at the finances then I understand why they want to run courses that will get bums on seats but it's a nightmare for the careers teams who get judged on the Graduate Outcome figures!! And it's not fair on the students.

Generally, my university practices ethical recruitment. I wouldn't work here if it didn't. We want quality students on high quality courses. But we're also under increasing pressure to increase income. These are challenging (and exhausting!) times.

The other thing to consider about apprenticeships is that they are training you to do a job.
That's great if you know what you want to do and can clearly articulate that. They are less beneficial for those who don't have a clear career idea in mind.

An academic, undecided young person is often better off at university.

That's not saying I'm not a fan of apprenticeships, I am! But just like uni, they're not for everyone.

@SerenityNowSerenityNow
Agreed. Apprenticeships are good for some, Unis are good for some.
The big difference, and cause of so much demand (and prob not as much supply) is that Unis cost and Apprenticeships pay. In some cases you’ll be on the same pay by the time the graduate comes in.
My DC is undecided, but I hope he can decide in the next 6 months!

My eldest is at uni. There are warnings wherever fees were mentioned that the figure only applies to this academic year and can go up.

Totally agree!
My nephew has just finished one. It was a great experience and he's earning a really good salary.

One of the biggest issues is the difficulty in getting them set up! It's a nightmare and not particularly cost efficient for universities unless you get big numbers.

Why should the same fees apply every year for the duration of the degree for home students? Many contracts have clauses allowing for increases in line with inflation - eg mobile phone contracts. I’m not aware of any promises having been made by all UK universities to keep home students’ fees at the same rate for the duration of all their degrees, rather than, eg, to keep them at no higher than the maximum rate set by Government, or no higher than an amount adjusted for inflation.