Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

University fees about to increase

193 replies

Onemorestepintheworld · 04/11/2024 14:33

An announcement is expected today. www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c0qdgndz5wzt Any bets? I reckon £12k pa

OP posts:
Sibilantseamstress · 05/11/2024 19:50

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 05/11/2024 17:53

You realise that mergers results in redundancies?
Mergers aren't necessarily the answer, particularly if the universities are not aligned in terms of mission or portfolio.

Of course! The redundancies are the efficiencies.

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 05/11/2024 19:58

Of course! The redundancies are the efficiencies.
I understand that. I work at a university that has made significant 'efficiencies'.

But I was replying to the poster who was questioning the contribution universities make to their local economy. Universities are large employers and large scale redundancies will have an impact on the local economy.

TizerorFizz · 05/11/2024 22:57

@boys3 That is interesting about startups. However. Where are they?

TizerorFizz · 05/11/2024 23:01

Universities could align in their ethos or could actually be stem or other specialist unis. LSE and Imperial manage it. Why not have more specialist unis? Why not have them offer varying levels of course within their specialist areas so all students get the benefits of expensive kit and access to research?

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 06/11/2024 07:19

TizerorFizz · 05/11/2024 23:01

Universities could align in their ethos or could actually be stem or other specialist unis. LSE and Imperial manage it. Why not have more specialist unis? Why not have them offer varying levels of course within their specialist areas so all students get the benefits of expensive kit and access to research?

Imperial and LSE are part of the same mission group. They're both RG. 🤷🏼‍♀️

How would having specialist universities help the sector? How would it benefit students?
It would be detrimental to widening access and first generation students as we know they tend to prefer to live at home. If the course they want to study is only offered at a specialist university hundreds of miles away, they just won't study that subject.

TizerorFizz · 06/11/2024 09:32

Specialist unis are in nearly every respected uni sector in Europe and there are many in the USA. They focus on excellence in their field and that’s helpful to students. It was what our polys were established to do. Have a focus and do it well. It’s a great shame that clarity has been lost.

Bejng RG (and yes, I do know what it is) has nothing to do with focus on an area of learning. There’s a strong argument to say they are world leading because they focus on specific areas of learning, We are terrified of changing anything and the uni sector is like an oil tanker. Changing direction is hard but some unis need to jettison some courses and be much better at what they concentrate on. At the same time they offer a deeper range of courses. No foundation level - HnD/C type course instead.

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 06/11/2024 11:10

Specialist unis are in nearly every respected uni sector in Europe and there are many in the USA. They focus on excellence in their field and that’s helpful to students. It was what our polys were established to do. Have a focus and do it well. It’s a great shame that clarity has been lost.

We do this in the UK through Centres of Excellence. Universities have multiple areas of excellence and I would argue it's more effective as it allows for resources to be shared and easier collaboration.
I don't see how closing down entire departments at a university to facilitate a narrower curriculum and research benefits the sector, the universities or the students?

Bejng RG (and yes, I do know what it is) has nothing to do with focus on an area of learning. There’s a strong argument to say they are world leading because they focus on specific areas of learning,

Being part of a particular mission group means they are aligned in values, ethos and culture. It's nothing to do with specific areas of learning.
But it is an important consideration when discussing mergers.
All universities are part of a mission group.

We are terrified of changing anything and the uni sector is like an oil tanker. Changing direction is hard but some unis need to jettison some courses and be much better at what they concentrate on. At the same time they offer a deeper range of courses. No foundation level - HnD/C type course instead.
I'm not terrified of change. The sector needs change. I just don't agree with some of the changes being suggested.

HEMole · 06/11/2024 12:52

All universities are part of a mission group.

No they aren't. There are over 30 universities that aren't members of mission groups: https://www.ucas.com/file/642566/download.

Registered Centre Reports Mission Groups

https://www.ucas.com/file/642566/download.

Phphion · 06/11/2024 13:28

In the UK, specialist institutions have tended to find their financial position difficult to manage because they lack the size necessary to attract and make big investments and they are vulnerable to external changes in the funding environment and academic fashion due to their lack of a diverse subject base.

This is why we have seen specialist institutions like UMIST, Institute of Education, School of Pharmacy, SSEES and so on merge themselves into bigger universities, despite already being top institutions in their own fields. It's also one of the reasons for SOAS's struggles today. Even the LSE was only able to get to the point where it was able to start marketing itself as its own now-successful brand because the University of London, of which it was a part, had protected and propped it up for decades while it struggled along as one of the least financially viable constituent colleges of UoL.

If universities want to stay part of the mainstream HE sector and continue to receive government funding (rather than go down the route of the University of Law, for example, and become private specialist universities, which carries a lot of risks and has few examples of success in the UK despite being a successful model in other countries), which it appears they do, the way funding works means that bigger and more diverse makes the most financial sense in nearly all cases. Even Imperial has been diversifying its subject portfolio into the social sciences particularly, because this gives them more potential for growth based on their existing brand name and increases their proportion of low cost, high profit course in subjects like business and economics to supplement their finances.

Universities didn't stop offering HND/Cs as stand alone courses on a whim. They stopped offering them because they had declined massively in popularity and, relatedly, the sub-degree level qualification system was subjected to endless messing about by successive governments with changes in status (FE/HE), funding, progression routes, regulation and qualification types and requirements all coming at a time when employers were also stepping back from funding part-time and work-release courses due to the general economic climate. Universities don't want to engage with a system that offers so little stability and so little financial return, to the point where they end up losing money just from covering the administration costs of trying - why would they? Things might change with the recently announced cuts to the funding of Foundation degrees in England and Wales (that have extended far beyond their original purpose because they offered a security to universities that other sub and pre-degree qualifications do not), but yet another change to the sub-degree landscape is not exactly going to inspire confidence in universities (or anyone else) that investing in sub-degree provision is any more likely to ensure their institution's financial future than selling off their chemistry lab to buy Powerball tickets.

Whether there should be something like the colleges of technology scattered throughout the country offering shorter, more vocational courses and if or how these colleges should relate to the HE sector is a different question. At the moment that provision is a bit of a wild west of private providers and it's questionable how much it could scale up in its current form without needing increased subsidies from the government.

TizerorFizz · 06/11/2024 17:40

The reason HNC/D stopped being popular is that the world and his wife could get a degree! The uni sector expanded and more or less wiped everything else out. A more structured approach to HE would be much better for students and employees. Plus a recognition that doing a lower level qualification and work is better than a foundation year in many ways.

We don’t seem to be able to compete with Germany regarding technical degrees. Of course we don’t want unis doing one narrow subject but larger unis doing stem well would be advantageous . Of course Imperial expanded! What uni would not want all those international fees (one of the highest for international students in the UK) and still keep its integrity as a Stem uni? It’s win win for them. Why not replicate this elsewhere? Could do similar for other major groups of subjects? We seem frightened of excellence and unable to allow DC who aren’t ready for a degree through the door but condemn them
to the “Wild West”. With some recalibration we could be better for the majority of students do they feel they get value for money.

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 06/11/2024 17:59

Even Imperial has been diversifying its subject portfolio into the social sciences particularly, because this gives them more potential for growth based on their existing brand name and increases their proportion of low cost, high profit course in subjects like business and economics to supplement their finances.

Exactly. My understanding is that the science/med courses are expensive to run and require lab facilities and are actually subsidised by the social sciences and humanities. Maybe the tuition fees should reflect the contact hours/facilities required for a course? Especially as so many people (to be fair, mostly certain people on here) appear to think that you need a STEM degree to get a decent job and that most humanity degrees should be abolished.Hmm

Runemum · 06/11/2024 18:16

UK universities should spend some time researching what other countries do as we spend the third highest amount per student out of all OECD countries. Then they might have some good ideas about what to do to reduce costs. Instead of being negative about any suggestions regarding this, they need to think of possible solutions.

In my opinion, less students should go to university to study a degree. It is not benefiting them or society. Too many young people go to university with just one or two E grades at A-level. These students do not actually want to study more, they just want to go to university because that is what everyone else does and they are too young to consider the consequences of the debt they are getting into. I agree with Fizz that students should be offered cheaper and shorter courses after A-levels instead.

titchy · 06/11/2024 18:31

UK universities should spend some time researching what other countries do as we spend the third highest amount per student out of all OECD countries. Then they might have some good ideas about what to do to reduce costs. Instead of being negative about any suggestions regarding this, they need to think of possible solutions.

We could follow the European model which is hundreds and hundreds of students in a first year lecture theatre. No pastoral support at all, everyone lives at home and most of them booted out at the end of year one. The only way that would be palatable in the UK was if the Gov paid the fees.

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 06/11/2024 18:32

UK universities should spend some time researching what other countries do as we spend the third highest amount per student out of all OECD countries. Then they might have some good ideas about what to do to reduce costs. Instead of being negative about any suggestions regarding this, they need to think of possible solutions.

Perhaps while we're doing (*more) of this you could spend sometime understanding the HE sector in the UK? Then you might understand WHY people who work in HE say certain ideas won't work.

  • Spoiler alert, we do work with universities outside of the UK. In my particular area we spend a lot of time sharing best practice internationally and learning from each other.
boys3 · 06/11/2024 19:58

Too many young people go to university with just one or two E grades at A-level.

yet, oddly, @Runemum , you don't provide any quantification for that statement. Its a valid point that you raise but might benefit from some context. Otherwise it risks being seen as just another over-exaggeration.

they just want to go to university because that is what everyone else does

I'm not convinced that 36% can really be rationally presented as "everyone else"?

less students should go to university

Do you really mean that fewer young women should be going to university? and in particular far fewer young women from London?

Tooffless · 06/11/2024 20:56

TizerorFizz · 06/11/2024 09:32

Specialist unis are in nearly every respected uni sector in Europe and there are many in the USA. They focus on excellence in their field and that’s helpful to students. It was what our polys were established to do. Have a focus and do it well. It’s a great shame that clarity has been lost.

Bejng RG (and yes, I do know what it is) has nothing to do with focus on an area of learning. There’s a strong argument to say they are world leading because they focus on specific areas of learning, We are terrified of changing anything and the uni sector is like an oil tanker. Changing direction is hard but some unis need to jettison some courses and be much better at what they concentrate on. At the same time they offer a deeper range of courses. No foundation level - HnD/C type course instead.

Edited

I used to work for one of the universities mentioned as world leading. Good teaching scores were considered an indicator of not doing good enough research i.e. the implicit message was don't spend so much effort trying to support students. But the reputation is very strong (because of research) so people assume they are also brilliant at teaching.

Some of the 'failing' universities do a far far better job of teaching but suffer in league tables because they can't attract the students with the best grades and don't have the research reputation to trade off.

Runemum · 06/11/2024 20:59

@titchy when I went to university, I did have 100 to 200 students in my lectures and I don't know anyone who dropped out because everyone was up to doing a degree. They were academic.

@boys3 I am surprised you say fewer young women from London would go to university. Statistics show that females do better at A-level than males and London results are better than the rest of the country. I am saying that academic students should go to university.
I absolutely want people from more deprived backgrounds to go to university when they are academic. If less people go, then it is possible to fully fund these students like in the past so they have no debt at all.
Getting non-academic students into debt to do a degree with poor job prospects is not helping deprived young people at all.

titchy · 06/11/2024 21:04

and I don't know anyone who dropped out because everyone was up to doing a degree. They were academic.

And that's the difference - the European model is admit anyone, boot em out if they don't make the cut. As I said no pastoral support. Can you imagine the outrage on MN given the fee loans students have?

It's works because students pay very little. That isn't the case in the UK.

Girls have always performed better at A levels than boys, but back in the days of 15 % going to uni - it was still largely boys that went and not girls. That was one reason nursing and teaching became graduate professions - to encourage girls to go to uni!

Runemum · 06/11/2024 21:15

@titchy
In 2024, I think equal numbers of females and males would go to university even if we reduced the number of students going to 15% because times have changed.
I want tuition fees to be massively reduced for students and I want less students to go to university as I don't think it is benefiting all of them. The European model makes sense. Adopt a European model and pay less.
Once less people go to university, companies will stop asking for degrees for jobs that don't require one and everyone will be in less debt.

titchy · 06/11/2024 21:30

think equal numbers of females and males would go to university even if we reduced the number of students going to 15% because times have changed.

You really think there are no gender biases at uni? That 50% of nursing students are male, 50% of physics students female?!

titchy · 06/11/2024 21:33

I've just checked, if you exclude nursing and teaching, more boys go to uni. Seems times haven't changed as much as we'd all like to think.

Runemum · 06/11/2024 21:43

@titchy In 2022/23, 1,668,600 higher education students were female and 1,251,815 were male. (HESA, 2024)
More females than males.
I don't think the fact that more males choose physics than females is a problem. I just think more males enjoy this subject as they are more interested in objects over people.

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 06/11/2024 21:50

. I just think more males enjoy this subject as they are more interested in objects over people.

This is an outdated stereotype.

titchy · 06/11/2024 21:51

Runemum · 06/11/2024 21:43

@titchy In 2022/23, 1,668,600 higher education students were female and 1,251,815 were male. (HESA, 2024)
More females than males.
I don't think the fact that more males choose physics than females is a problem. I just think more males enjoy this subject as they are more interested in objects over people.

Now use the same table to filter to entrants, full time, first degree. Remove those in education and allied to medicine - more males than females.

My broader point is that if we went back to the 'good old days' of 15%, that was when nursing and teaching were not graduate professions, so you'd need to add those back in, unless you want to remove their graduate status and we're now at 20%.

So how do you propose we cut the remaining 15%?

boys3 · 06/11/2024 21:59

I am surprised you say fewer young women from London would go to university.

That wasn'r what I was saying -,@Runemum but I may have been a bit too subtle. My point is that you are advocating - perhaps without realising it - that far fewer young women should go to university So I'd rather you were honest and just come out and say it. Or at least get a grasp of the actual numbers and the regional and gender disparities.