Industrial placements

[BlueskyBluesea]

How are your DC getting on with arranging these? It seems like every placement is so competitive and really it is very lucky if a student is able to organise a placement that is relevant to their degree. Or do you have a son or daughter that found and completed a placement ....any advice gratefully appreciated ☺️

A MEng taking 5 years means one year less earning a graduate salary. A 4 year MEng is just as good and 5 years is a long time. Lots of engineers don’t want that or need it. You can earn very well as a new MEng grad and the year in industry doesn’t mean they will earn more than a grad without it. Imperial College has placements from Easter to September. 22 weeks but it’s part of the standard 4 years and not compulsory. Funding 5 years is also expensive but each to their own,

You're working an awful long time before you retire. An extra year in uni is not very long and, in my experience as an academic, the placement is a hugely beneficial part of their education so no, I wouldn't say it's just as good as doing it without. The employers certainly value it. But yes, obviously not everyone sees it that way. The money they make on placement helps pay for the extra year. Fees are €2000 here although living costs can be expensive.

If they don't do the M.Eng here, the B.E. is 4 years but with a shorter placement. When I did my degree 40 years ago, it was 4 years for the B.E. without placement. There was no option then to do a 5th year for the M.Eng. You usually did that after a bit of work experience. England is, I think, a bit of an outlier with a 3 year B.Eng.

@OchonAgusOchonOh Are you an engineering employer in the uk or an Irish academic? You probably do not have the same system of Chartered Engineers, but you might. I don’t know. However in the UK you need a MEng. You are not necessarily preferred if you have a year in industry and 5 years behind you. You are still recruited as a graduate engineer. Yes, you might stay with the company but many will recruit MEng grads without any year in industry because most applicants won’t have it. Imperial (top 10 world uni) does not even offer it. Nor Oxbridge. This is because it’s not the advantage you think it is.

The quicker dc get Chartered the quicker they earn more money. It means more when you are younger. As I said: each to their own but it’s time spent that students don’t need. They might well enjoy it and find it a benefit but employers are not just employing dc with it.

I am an Irish academic and yes, we have the same system of chartered engineers here. You don't need an M Eng in either Ireland or the UK to become a chartered engineer. However, it is the most efficient way of achieving the status.

I do believe students are more employable with the benefit of placement. It is not the work they have done on placement that does that. It is the process and experience that results in them maturing professionally. I can see the difference in the students before and after placement. Sure, some students will develop that themselves but for most the placement accelerates the process. They are not more employable because they have done placement per se, rather they are more employable because of the professional maturing that results from placement.

Obviously if most don't have placement, most who are employed won't have been on placement. However, those who have the benefit of placement will hit the ground running and will potentially progress a little quicker. It will, of course, even out fairly quickly.

I think you'll find the reasons the likes of Imperial and Oxbridge don't offer it are not as simplistic as you are suggesting. There is plenty of academic research indicating that it does in fact increase employability.

I am assuming you are not an engineering employer or an academic? What are you basing your claims on?

DH ran a mid sized (very profitable) engineering consultancy for 40 plus years and has just retired. Employed many engineers. It made no difference to them if grad engineers had a work experience placement or not. Mainly because most had not. They looked for engineering competence and ability to learn quickly and be able to work efficiently and effectively . Getting chartered without Meng takes forever and most without MEng don’t bother. They do incorporated route. I always suggest MEng for the more ambitious and higher attaining students. They do not need to choose a course with a placement and extend learning to 5 years. The first year of employment counts towards CPD and is paid at full salary. However if others prefer 5 years, that’s up to them but in the UK it is not necessary and we are not Ireland.

Obviously the UK is not Ireland....

My point is that placement dramatically improves the graduates' engineering competence and ability to learn quickly and ability to work efficiently and effectively. There is plenty of research to support this. So while an employer may not look for placement explicitly, they, like your dh, look for the competencies that are developed during placement.

And yes, I know getting chartered is a long slog without an M. Eng. I pointed out that that the M. Eng. is not required as you were insisting it is.

Anyway, I'm out of this conversation. There is no point in continuing to rehash our points. I, and academic research, believe work placement is beneficial to students' education and professional development. You think they're better off getting straight in to the workplace to start earning as early as possible..

Students are far better advised to do a MEng if they can. They might well be better off financially not doing a placement making a degree 5 years and many do summer work instead. The competences needed can be acquired at uni via projects and we should not necessarily encourage 5 year undergrad courses unless the student really wants this and has enough money to support it. Some students don’t live anywhere near suitable placements and lots are competitive. The student has to find them. As DH actually employed engineers, there were few around with meaningful experience as students in their fields of expertise. If it works for those who do it, so be it but it’s possibly better for BEng students who cannot do the MEng.

The year long placements are paid, so that helps.

DS1 plans to do an MEng and is weighing up a placement year. We will see what he decides.

The year long placements are paid, so that helps.

Well yes, but a job a year sooner after graduating ought to pay more so I'm not sure that helps?

The other thing that's occurred to me, thinking about my chemistry degree and DDs engineering, is that I'm not sure we'd have hit the ground running on the tough academic work of our final year if we'd had a year out focussed on a specific job. Maybe this depends on both the degree and the individual.

@ErrolTheDragon we take the YII students and there pay is pretty good it’s around 20k for the year. We then use it to accelerate the good students into full time direct entry roles or graduate roles.

I found having a year old focused me more on my final year which I know sounds counter productive, if you asks lecturers you can tell who went out on placement and who didn’t. I most definitely matured and grew up a lot on my placement.

In the UK it will not be y1 as far as I’m aware. Y3 is the norm and it leads into the final year. It can be disjointed as @ErrolTheDragon says and it’s difficult to see why a year at circa £20,000 is better than a grad job at £40,000. I’m not sure how well placements are evaluated either (in engineering) against not doing one. In the uk where few do them, where is the evidence those who don’t are not doing just as well? I think placements play into insecurities which really don’t exist for the best MEng grads.

DD and friends are back for final year after placement and have hit the ground running with determined focus. They're managing their time better, keeping to a 9-5ish schedule and ensuring they have downtime in evenings and one weekend day. They're also very aware of what the job market looks like and where they are aiming for. It's also helped determine final projects.

@fortyfifty - that correlates with what I see from the employer side.

My office hires 10 interns annually for year-long placements - it's always extremely rewarding to see how much they mature in the 11 months they're with us.

My DS is now applying for 3rd year placements himself - finance roles across lots of different sectors - and I'm a little dismayed as to the formulaic approach they all take to recruitment: CV and cover letter, followed rapidly by online aptitude/psychometric tests, followed rapidly by a computer driven online interview, followed rapidly by silence..... (UCAS was good preparation after all lol)

Only 1 firm out of 20+ he's applied to so far has taken a different approach, which ultimately led to a group selection day last month. Unfortunately, he wasn't successful, but well done to Mercedes HPP AMG for actually tailoring their recruitment process specifically to their company and to prospective interns.

If DC do placements then inevitably they know what they like as they applied for it. That does not mean these are the best jobs they could get and there are some dc who do want different companies. They are many smaller companies where you are not a tiny cog in a huge wheel but have much more opportunity to develop skills in a different way and be closer to how the company runs. Business skills can develop alongside engineering skills for example. There are many opportunities for engineers and doing a placement doesn’t mean the grad is better.

@BlueskyBluesea Seems a year in industry isn’t worth it for the engineers but for those of us with DC not doing engineering how are the applications coming along?
@cyclingmum67 they do seem rather formulaic but DD2 has been asked some very different questions in the computer generated interviews. I’m not sure how companies can get through the thousands that apply other than using online computerised assessments; especially in the early stages.
How’s everyone else getting along?

Two rejections so far for year placements, DC decided to apply for summer placements as well so fingers xed for those. Hope your DC is having more luck 🤞@NotDonna

Fingers crossed for him! DDs too busy to apply for both summer & year long ones so has focused on the year ones. She wasn’t expecting them to be advertised simultaneously. Certainly no good as a back up.

DS has had two rejections and had a first round interview this week. I was expecting the interview to be a computer video type one but it was conducted by a person.

Wow @Ellerby83 A real person! I’m wondering if he’s quite a way through the process for that application then?
Im saying this but I’ve a vague recollection that DD1 had a telephone interview at the second stage of a 5/6 stage process for one of her apprenticeship applications. Seems an expensive approach if it’s early days. Hopefully he’ll get some positive feedback & onto the next hurdle.

I’m just wondering if anyone ever approaches smaller companies that don’t have computer generated recruitment? My DHs company was not big enough for that but still recruited interns over the summer. Occasionally for a year. They recruit an apprentice or two. Does anyone actually look at non household names but look at local business?

My DS is applying to smaller companies as well as larger ones. He hasn't speculatively approached companies though just applying when advertised. The smaller companies might have less applicants hopefully and maybe a less convoluted recruitment process.

@TizerorFizz i think with speculative approaches the university has to verify they meet course requirements. It’s already very time consuming applying to ones advertised (including smaller non-household names).

The placement my DD has last year was not through a smaller co.pany but she got it through a less formal process and a proper interview (online) with 2 people. It was advertised much later on though. Like I've said, most people we know didn't get placements until spring and even into summer. The very big companies who take a lot of interns advertise early on. But companies do advertise placements in later months too. The odds get better as time goes on.

@NotDonna They don’t for summer internships which are also very valuable. Back in the day DH always did this and valuable experience it was too! Not to mention getting noticed! I’d also look at this as being worthwhile and smaller companies can help with this and are interested if recruitment is tough for them. Just a thought really!

That’s very true! I think bc her course includes ‘year in industry’ and she works in retail both term time and holidays she’d not thought of a summer internship. It’s definitely worth thinking about. Would she send her CV in with a covering letter or is that all a bit outdated now? I’m not sure where to begin - our town is a bit dead!