Industrial placements

[BlueskyBluesea]

How are your DC getting on with arranging these? It seems like every placement is so competitive and really it is very lucky if a student is able to organise a placement that is relevant to their degree. Or do you have a son or daughter that found and completed a placement ....any advice gratefully appreciated ☺️

I think it depends on the student and employer. A BEng with a year out is still the slow track to getting CEng. Cannot be anything else with no masters. That, of course, might not matter. Also in careers where employers want grads, it’s no huge advantage over those with the higher MEng degree who can attain the CEng status more readily. However it can be cheaper for the employers if they don’t want all MEng grads.

My DD did a semester placement and it was DIY from start to finish. Gives the lecturers a break I guess. They had to cajole a few but the placements advertised by the uni were few and far between, and many struggled to get anything. The overseas ones went home.

I also have a suspicion we might have more uni students wanting this year than maybe Ireland does? Employers here have vast numbers of grads to choose from and maybe put more effort into having a choice of applicants when they recruit and via intern schemes? Certainly a year in industry for a history or English student doesn’t happen but they still get jobs. So year out can only be for some courses which match the employers needs in a more practical way. Taking a sandwich student on is not looking at a broad spectrum of applicants from multiple disciplines.

We have had such massive uni expansion here. I think it’s another area that has become more difficult for students to navigate. Most students who are happily placed and want that company/job.have their needs met. Others are a square peg in a round hole. Others get nothing. My DD1 did a degree with no work placement. Ditto her friends. It didn’t stop them getting jobs and being successful. In some cases very high earners. In my day it was the polys who had great relations with employers. A few unis developed along those lines but most top end ones didn’t. I think a year out gives a helping hand to some, no doubt about it, but as they have won the placement jackpot, they probably would have got a job anyway.

"I also have a suspicion we might have more uni students wanting this year than maybe Ireland does? "

Work placement is a required component on the majority of courses in the university I work at in Ireland. Same in most other universities. There are some who do a year abroad instead and some BA courses don't have a placement element.

"We have had such massive uni expansion here."

We have a higher percentage of students going on to third level education than the UK. It's something like 85% who go on to third level now. It's way too high in my opinion.

@OchonAgusOchonOh I did read some stats on Ireland after I posted and, yes, it’s one of the highest participation rates in the EU. I’m not sure that’s all degree level though. As here, HE is not just degrees.

Maybe the Irish economy is more bouyant so employers need grads? Here we have 20% of grads that struggle to get work. I thought I read that Ireland has 7 unis. Is that correct? Other technical colleges exist though. Here the students with lower A levels or no A levels don’t target uni. I guess in Ireland they can? If so, are the degrees rigorous or more like training courses supplemented by work? Or are the Irish way more intelligent than the Brits? Not having a go at Ireland but the differences are stark as we have 38% at uni here. Are we comparing like with like?

@TizerorFizz

There are 8 universities if you include Royal College of Surgeons, which is not part of the Irish Universities Association so wouldn't always be listed. There are 5 technological universities. These are very new and used to be institutes of technology, similar to polytechs in the UK, but have offered level 8 degrees for a long time. Traditionally, they offered level 6 and 7 degrees only and some students would still only do a lower level qualification there. There are also 3 teacher training colleges, all of whom do degrees.

It's difficult to find numbers for university only vs the institutes of technology so yeah, it's not fully comparing like with like. I can assure you though our degrees are every bit as rigorous as those in the UK. The majority of level 8 degrees are 4 years rather than the 3 in the UK. That makes the inclusion of work placement more practical than in the UK. The three year degrees wouldn't generally have placement.

The reason we have such a high percentage going on to third level is the esteem in which education is held in Ireland. It presumably harks back to the days of British rule when education was denied to the Irish and we had to set up hedge schools and the like. Education is seen as a way to get on in life. Obviously students without a leaving cert (A level equivalent) wouldn't be heading on for a degree as they wouldn't have the entry requirements but students with poorer results can often get in to a degree course. But that's the same in the UK surely? I read on here about kids with Cs and Ds doing degrees.

And yes, our economy is buoyant so plenty of work for grads. Although that depends on their degree subjects.

@OchonAgusOchonOh Yes. There are unis that take lower grade A levels of 2 A levels but I think we have over 150 unis. Of course we are bigger. I believe we have 38% of 18 year olds going to uni so nowhere near 85%. I did read somewhere the stat was 58% in Ireland. 85% does sound very high! I think the EU is 41% and the article said Ireland was higher at 58%. So maybe that’s the apples compared with the apples. I think a uni education is values here but 85% could not access it and nor should they at 18.

It's 85% who go on to third level, which would include the former institutes of technology and those doing level 7 as well as level 8 so the 58% for uni sounds more likely.

I think perhaps the class system in the UK may stand in the way of going to uni. While we do have a class system in Ireland, it is much more fluid and less rigid.

@OchonAgusOchonOh
Huge efforts have been made to get all classes of students to uni if they are qualified and interested in going. The government stats do show increases in participation from more deprived areas and those coming from ethnic minorities do go. Many choose to stay local though and sometimes the challenge is to aim
high. The money available is not too bad but often families are risk averse. I guess seeing success and the bigger picture matters but even some do, they don’t want it. London students see wealth around them and have higher participation rates and immigrants value education. We are a mixed bag!

It's about changing a mindset really. That's a long term campaign.

Also the cost of university in England (and possibly Wales?) doesn't help. I remember when I was in uni we were all jealous of the UK system where everyone seemed to get grants and we were paying fees with only a subset of people getting grants.

I remember when I was in uni we were all jealous of the UK system where everyone seemed to get grants

But the 'everyone' then was a much smaller percentage of youngsters.

In 1970 it was around 10%. So it’s nearly quadrupled. Also as I worked in grants and awards at my LA, I can assure you most did not get full grants in my SE shire county. DH had no friends on full grant. My Dsis were as DF had died. Most parents had to pay a % as assessed on income. So not really different from now. The difference is no fees or loans. We had around 3000 new and 6000 plus continuing assessments for grants each year in the 80s.

Yes but I was still paying fees😀

Fees were £450 p.a. when I started my degree. By my fourth year, fees had gone up to £1200. That was 42-39 years ago.

I recently paid ds's fees for this academic year. €2000. It's some difference. Mind you, when I was in uni if you were on a grant you could, if you were frugal, live on it. There is no way you could live on it now, with the cost of accommodation.

We would have seen no fees as a grant as that is one level of grant in Ireland. Unless you were on a grant in Ireland, it was fully self-funded, including fees.

Interesting discussion. Sorry to the op for the derail😁

The disadvantaged get the full loan here and it will just about pay rent and living costs if you are frugal. Some dc get bursaries too. When parents do not or cannot make their contribution it’s difficult. However most can work in the holidays. DH did as even back in the 70s his parents didn’t pay up!

We don't have a loan system here. It's either the grant, which doesn't need to be paid back, or nothing. A lot of ours work part time now and in the summer too obviously.

There were very few jobs to be had when I was at uni. The 80's was one long recession in Ireland. I was lucky to have a summer job. I would have struggled to work during term time anyway with the contact hours I had.

I think this is where links with industry come in. Making contact with employers and getting paid internships. The problem is for dc who don’t live in good employment areas. We had a lot of unemployment here too in the 80s. Grads had to make an effort to get a job. The bigger issue now is jobs not matching aspiration or not enough grads in some areas, so we like immigrants to make up the shortfall.

I guess that's the advantage of the system here. The university is responsible for dealing with the companies and setting up the intern programmes. Students can get their own internship but it has to be approved by the university. Having to get your own internship just widens the social divide as those who already have the contacts have it so much easier.

Re jobs in the 80's - There were a lot more jobs in the UK than here. Unemployment was up at 17/18% when I graduated. I was lucky to get a job in Ireland but most of those who graduated around that time emigrated.

I think we got to 11% but that’s 5% in some areas and nearer 20 in others! I think Ireland benefits from being small and plenty of companies offering to work with unis. We have so many more students and lots of small companies that don’t engage with a uni because they don’t need to. Many internships are very competitive here and fewer are not really based on who you know but I’ve just read on this thread that work was given by a family member. Great if you can get it!

Obviously, it was similar in Ireland in terms of unemployment black spots.

I don't think our success in respect to internships is due to our size. It's more due to the time, effort and money the universities have put in to building relationships with companies. We also have lots of small companies for whom paid internships make no sense and obviously we have a much smaller number of companies to choose from so the numbers of students isn't really a factor that makes it easier.

It's just a different system really. In Ireland most degrees are 4 years and have an internship built in. Because of that, it's the universities' responsibility to ensure the students get the internships. That doesn't seem to be the case in the UK.

No it’s not. You are right and as a result, students cannot expect a placement. Again we have over promising and too many students on these courses. There’s also the argument that the best grads will get jobs without it. As I explained earlier, it’s not always the best choice. For some it’s great it certainly leads to a who you know culture.

I would disagree - that year in industry is so valuable when it comes to applying for jobs and it can also be useful when deciding which type of engineering etc to go into.

But you will mostly go into employment with a BEng which limits progression or you’ve taken 5 yesrs for a MEng. Most engineers study a branch of engineering at uni so hopefully they already know what they want plus students only get one placement so it might be a good one or it might be that it’s not what you want. That’s a year wasted. Any decent engineering grad will get a job. There’s a shortage of engineers. Students don’t need a year with a company to get a good job and the MEng might be more valuable in the long run. Getting qualified sooner means better pay sooner and numerous possibilities for work around the world.

Placement is never wasted. I teach students before they go on placement and afterwards. They mature hugely on placement. They get much more out of their final year having that experience.

Degrees in England (don't know about other parts of the UK) are already very short. An extra year only brings it up to most other countries. Here a B.E. is 4 years and 5 if you go for the M.Eng option.

@OchonAgusOchonOh Do you know how an engineering grad gets to chartered status? Do you know what they need academically and what’s required? The student obviously can get something out of a placement but if it’s at the expense of a MEng they have made CEng status a lot more difficult and lengthy. BEng grads cannot become Chartered Engineers without a Masters. Obviously they can all get jobs but the MEng holders are usually the fast track to CEng status. BEng is Incorporated Engineer. Or you can work and not bother at all. In which case a year in industry is useful.

Why on earth would it be at the expense of an M.Eng? My ds is currently studying engineering. He goes on a 8 month placement in 4th year and then does the M.Eng in 5th year.

And yes, I do know how an engineer gets to chartered status. Both my primary and masters degrees are in engineering. Charted status is not relevant for many engineering disciplines. While students doing civil/structural engineering for example would be sensible to do the 5 year degree to get the M.Eng directly, it doesn't make much difference to career progression for mechanical/biomedical etc. That said, the vast majority of them do the 5 year programme.