Durham - insights needed!

[orangepeppersalt]

Hi all,

DS finalising uni choices right now. He's trying for Cambridge - he's pretty academic, loves his subject, and predicted 4 a-stars - but fully aware he's one among many! If Cambridge doesn't happen he's got a shortlist of a few others he's visited and likes - but struggling with a fifth choice...

Durham is ranked very highly for his subject, and while all the other possible choices have average offers of AAB, Durham seems more along the lines of Oxbridge, with average offers being Astar AA.

For some reason, DS thinks that Durham isn't worth considering. I think someone said something disparaging about it being dull and it's put him off. My DH isn't helping - he went to a Northern uni and has a negative view...

Obviously, it's up to DS where he applies, but I think, given Durham's academic reputation (and the fact that he is a strong candidate for higher grades), that he should at least think about it properly. Can anyone offer any insight as to how much I should encourage him, or why he might think this? Thanks so much.

I used to teach at Durham and was based at one of the old (Bailey) colleges. I loved it myself because I love old buildings and because I made a great group of friends and was working with amazing colleagues.

BUT it was always a boring town from the perspective of many 18-21 year olds used to proper going out out in big cities. It’s also boring in another way which is that the high number of ex public school students makes a large part of the student body less diverse and less woke than many other unis. People can usually find their tribe but if they want a more LSE-style student experience students can find Durham boring.

I would try to let your ds go for what he’s drawn to, obviously while flagging future career prospects etc. Three years is a long time to be somewhere that isn’t the right fit.

My DS visited a friend at uni there for the weekend. He does this a lot with friends around the country, and has so far been to Manchester, London, Leeds, Bristol, Cambridge, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Lancaster and Nottingham.

Of all the unis he’s visited to stay with friends at the weekend (including his own uni), Durham was his least favourite. He described it as boring, everyone looks the same - “copy and paste”. I think DS prefers more vibrant, diverse cities and wasn’t feeling it with Durham. Of course, some will love that about the place so it’s very much horses for courses.

*He described it as boring, everyone looks the same - “copy and paste”.
The history of Durham is small cathedral city surrounded by impoverished mining communities so no-one should expect it to have the cultural mix or vibrancy of a major city. However this perception is possibly based on those his friend is mixing with. The figures show one third of students are international on a par with Bristol and more than at Lancaster, Nottingham and Glasgow.

Oh definitely would have been those he saw during a weekend there for sure. And appreciate there may be many international students - maybe they just weren’t in the bars etc he went to. I think it was more that he was struck how everyone he saw on the streets and in the bars were literally wearing the same clothes, jewellery etc. Which isn’t something he’s seen at the other unis he’s been to. Whilst appreciating as well that some prefer uniformity and feel comfortable with it. As I said - horses for courses.

@orangepeppersalt your ds must chose where he wants to go and where he wants to spend the next three years. A happy student does better academically than an unhappy student.

Both mine had Durham.on their lists. It wouldn't have suited DS (rebellious, alpha and very social), it would have suited DD (quiet, beta, conformist). To be fair for dd's subject Cambridge was 1st in the tables with Durham 2nd and Oxford third.

At 18/19 they have to own their decisions rather than those of their parents.

@EwwSprouts when I was there the postgraduate population was much more international than the undergraduate population. Unlike at Oxbridge the postgraduates tended to predominantly be at their own postgraduate-only colleges. So there wasn’t much of an international flavour in undergraduate colleges.

Durrham certainly has a good reputation and is highly regarded by enployers, it seems.
Your DS may not be swayed by this, of course, but it might be worrh emphasising.
DS went there a decade ago and had a truly good time, he loved the college life with formal dinners, varied societies including sport and special interest and made lovely friends there.
It might also be worth noting that he got interviews for every job he applied for and was successful in getting the job he really wanted .

I haven't checked the split across PG & UG but I think there is change for the better. In year 1, DS was in a flat of six; 2 girls from the UK (one southern,one northern), DS also northern, 3 international boys - Pakistan, Hong Kong and China. In one sport DS plays the majority of the players on the college team last year were Americans. There are definitely some international UG on his STEM course.

The likely high point of conformity at Durham would be participation in sport as it's 75% of students. Not sure that sits with it would suit beta personalities better?

Obviously young people should go where they feel comfortable. If they haven't visited though misconceptions are not helpful.

@Foxhasbigsocks Only the first para was a response to you. Subsequent paras related to other comments. Probably should have split post.

If you actually look at some subject rankings then Durham is very mid range. It does try to sell itself as up there with Oxbridge and the offer grades often reflect that but it really isn’t all that academically.
It is very white and yes pretty posh and the town is small and dull. To be fair the college system feels very Oxbridge and the whole vibe suits people who were looking for that and expect the dressing up and formal feel.

I personally think Oxbridge do that whole formal gown meal thing very well and it becomes very inclusive whereas at Durham it becomes the comfort zone of the private schoolers and the others slink away a bit.

In terms of academia then Warwick, York, Sheffield, Birmingham to name a few are often ranked much higher for some subjects and of course some of the London unis like LSE are clearly very well regarded. So be very clear that for his subject that there aren’t much better Unis he should be considering if he is academically very able.

I have had a sibling and a nephew go to Durham and they struggled to find their tribe for a while and got a bit fed up of the whole public school scene. If you don’t live up North it’s also a bit of a pain to get to.

And as for what employers want, many firms are moving to blind applications for Uni and just focusing on final grade and subject areas. I guess in part because it can be so hard to keep track of where is more highly regarded as this changes with research/funding etc.
The Russel group/redbricks cannot simply be regarded as ‘better’ from their history anymore when so many of the newer Unis are really making their name (often subject or faculty specific))

In employability terms you can’t go wrong with Durham as there are lots of Durham graduates across all the professions etc.

But IME many other universities are equally well perceived and it is very unlikely Durham rather than another good uni is going to be a deciding factor in any recruitment process.

College system, formal dinners, lots of rich people, small pretty city dominated by students..... I would have thought Cambridge would be pretty similar to Durham in many ways, so if he's considering that then I don't know why he doesn't fancy Durham.
Some very bright kids just don't feel all the tradition and poshness is for them and elect to go elsewhere, to a more "normal" gritty city like Manchester or Newcastle - and that's fine.

If you look at league tables though it DOES perform very highly overall and for most subjects. You clearly just don't rate it which is fine and it isn't appealing for everyone but I feel this is a bit unduly negative.

Presumably you are looking at all your choices as a whole, to make sure you have a bit of range of offers just in case he doesn't do quite as well as you hope/expect. At the end of the day you will have to narrow it down to just two.
I would just say pick ones that your DS would be happy to go to. We drove all the way London to Durham and my DD decided in about 10mins that it wasn't for her 😐

@HeavyMetalMaiden because you have to cut the list somewhere and sure you can start top 20 or 30 and whittle it down. And of course some subjects rank very high at unis that might be considered middling otherwise. To get her list my DD looked at cross section between top for subject and top overall across Times, Guardian and CUG. If it made it for both then it was worth looking at (also considering location etc). Some top unis, like Imperial, will be for STEM. And they don't offer my DD's subject at St Andrews. So that narrows it down further until there's quite an obvious list.
@Rhinoc 'the cathedral is nice' that rather sums up your feelings! 'Posher and dumber' is a ridiculous sentiment considering they are about on par in terms of state/private (state being overwhelming majority) and grade attainment.
Can't argue about the affect on housing though, but it's presumably Durham residents who own the housing rented by students? They do pretty well out of it! Not to mention the amount of money made from students in the retail/service sector.

My DS is at durham in his first year. From our experience it’s a mixture of students. From what we have seen the Bailey colleges seem to attract more private school students and hill colleges are more of a mix. There are clubs in Durham and plenty of bars and restaurants, the cheap college bars are also an obvious hit with students so they still get to socialise in the prettier spaces even if they’re not living there! It is a 12 min £3 Young person train journey to Newcastle so for those wanting more it is easily accessible and plenty go there. My DS is not privately educated and has not felt out of place! It’s a 3 hour direct train to London and if booked in advance can be as little as £20 with a YP card.
As for the housing, we have been told that there is plenty of housing, a few years ago students queued and word quickly spread, there was no need and no shortage. I would suggest signing up to the palatinate on insta.
At the end of the day if your DCs like it that’s all that matters, I’ve spent a long time worrying and constantly heard comments from people saying it’s small, posh and boring but that just isn’t the case. It’s smaller, it’s one of the safest universities according to stats and everything is within walking distance. The collegiate system is also not for everyone but we liked it and I think it has helped our DS make friends quickly. The freps waited outside clubs on freshers week to make sure students got home safely. They also have excellent student welfare support in place if they need it. A lot of students would have applied to Oxbridge so if that doesn’t work out there are lots with similar experiences. There are students who party hard and drink lots and those who don’t. There are some V posh and some not, It’s a mixture, just like anywhere! He has no regrets and is enjoying his time there, that is all that matters.

Dd is at a hill college and in her townhouse of 12 she is one of only 2 who were privately educated.

She seems to be getting on well with everyone so all good so far. She’s very chilled about second year housing and is resisting rushing into a tenancy.

'I’ve spent a long time worrying and constantly heard comments from people saying it’s small, posh and boring but that just isn’t the case."

But it is just the case ...it is objectively a small city, it is objectively 'posh' as it has highest % of privately educated students.....and 'boring' is subjective ie in the eye of the beholder - but objectively it is less diverse and has less range of nightlife than many other options....and to many teenagers that is boring.

We went to the open day last year followed the day after by Leeds and then a few weeks later Cambridge. The difference in diversity was stark between Durham and the other two.

I was impressed with the facilities at Durham, the reputation and teaching are undoubtedly excellent.

My DC is from a very comfortable and affluent SE background - educated at state primary, private secondary and state grammar 6th form. However there is a nuance about the private/state issue at Durham - the dominant culture (not necessarliy in raw numbers but those who make their presence and braying voices heard) seems to be around the public schools heirachy (rather than private per se) - and many seem to be networking furiously amongst themselves to climb the greasy pole. I am not sure those involved are even aware of the other 60%. My DC is not enamoured by this set up and finds the social 'formals' cringey. My advice is you will find your tribe to buffer this and you shouldnt be discouraged from purchasing / experiencing a top quality education by the 'white noise' of the elites.

I have suggested that they actually look to live in Newcastle in Yr2 (hop on the train for 10 mins) to have a more diverse and enriching uni / city experience.

@Lanzar - never thought of the Newcastle option from send year. I wonder if enough people consider this option so that you get groups sharing a flat/house?

“second” year

This might be helpful to look at, privately educated intake is still high but others not far behind.

thetab.com/uk/2023/09/18/these-are-the-universities-with-the-most-private-school-students-2023-329459#:~:text=Despite%20this%20incredibly%20high%20figure,total%20of%2039.5%20per%20cent.

It'll end up being at least an hour commute each way. Affordable student accommodation in Newcastle is not near the Central train station, and the walk from Durham station to the university lecture halls will be at least 20 minutes (a lot of the time in the rain)

Aahh, thanks for the reality check!

Boringness is in the eye of the beholder.

If your dc want huge shopping centres and loads of concerts and performances then yes Durham is dull.

If they want to get involved in a ton of extra-curricular activities, from drama to sport, to music, then I'd suggest it's pretty unbeatable as 1. everything is close by and walkable compared to a larger city and 2. you have got both college and university level clubs and societies.

My dc there sometimes does two or three different activities in a day and barely sits still.

The Durham Union gets excellent speakers.

There are a couple of clubs, endless cheap college bars and loads of socials.

It's about as unboring as you can get IF you aren't after bright city lights stuff.