So tuition fees are increasing. Will this change your DC’s thoughts on university

[user7654263]

It’s much needed for the sector but with tuition fees increasing and accommodation being eye wateringly expensive will this change your DCs view on university? It’s so expensive and the interest in student loans starts from day one so racks up really quickly.

I feel grateful to have gone in the days of grants but have one at university and one in year 13 and it’s really something you need to evaluate carefully to see whether it’s worth it.

I still suspect it won’t be enough to save the universities that are on the brink of collapse unfortunately.

There is a presumption that degrees have a common value like A levels, so it doesn’t matter where you go to get one.

The employability varies hugely by University and course. Why do many successful companies target specific Unis?

It's so naive to think that all degrees are equal.

There are so many factors here, but at some level degrees are equal. There is benchmarking and QAA etc. Of course, there are issues such as high tariff universities, where more equipped students continue to excel, but that is not a straightforward thing. I know some people would like to imagine that University of Puddleswick hands out 1sts like sweeties for English or History or Chemistry or, god forbid, Media Studies....but it really doesn't work like that.

I was lucky enough to go when fees were £3k and was able to study at a university that purports to be in the top 100 globally according to some metrics. However, given my time again, I would try to enter employment aged 18.
What I didn’t appreciate at the time is three years working give you such a head start given what has happened to house prices over recent decades.

The cheapest two-bedroom freehold properties within a commutable distance of London – you are looking at maybe £250k. Those that lived at home for a couple of years could save for house deposits while still a teenager.
Now in my thirties housing tenure seems to be the main yardstick of “success” rather than anything to do with education.

I look back on my days playing at student politics and wince. It all seems so juvenile in comparison to those who were taking the first steps on the career ladder.

Totally agree with this. Am bemused by the argument espoused on this thread that a degree demonstrates certain a level of skills and ways of thinking.

Unfortunately from recent experience of employing people with degrees from lower tariff entry universities, we've seen that is just not the case. They have not demonstrated anywhere near the level of logical thinking, critical analysis, or communication skills that we would expect from a graduate and required a huge amount of training and hand-holding to do pretty basic tasks.

We didn't specify these jobs required a degree because I'm not keen on perpetuating the myth that you have to a degree to get an admin/entry level role. But everyone who applied did have a degree, so we didn't have much choice!

But the notion that having any degree, from any type of institution, means you have the same skills is clearly nonsense.

It's so naive to think that all degrees are equal.

Yes, but if neither you, nor anybody you know has ever gone to university it is an understandable misconception.

But the notion that having any degree, from any type of institution, means you have the same skills is clearly nonsense.

Good job I didn't actually say that isn't it!

If you actually read how that conversation evolved you'll see that it was in relation to subject not institution.

What is nonsense is the notion that only certain degrees (STEM degrees are the ones usually quoted) are worthwhile and the only ones where students learn anything valuable.

There are so many factors here, but at some level degrees are equal. There is benchmarking and QAA etc

I’m not sure at what level. The mechanism to ensure parity isn’t particularly robust.

Benchmarking is largely achieved through external examiners, and the external examiners tend to come from similar level institutions to your own.

I am sure unis could save money by cutting research in some more obscure areas. We really don’t need more research into ancient history etc surely?

also ditch some of the more obscure topics within each degree - The texts we covered in my English degree seemed to be based on what the profs liked and ignored the last 20 years of commercial publishing, for example.

conversely, the UK has a thriving arts industry. Will it make you rich? Possibly more likely than if taking a classics degree

I don't think I tagged you in my reply and I wasn't actually replying to you.

Someone earlier on in the thread said "All degrees (in order to be approved by the CQC) develop critical thinking, research & writing skills, often also team skills and communication, deadline adherence and self-discipline."

My comments were in response to this because in my experience this is just not true.

Will it make you rich…….?!
Christ we really are at the end stage of civilisation. Maybe be useful to look at the fall of other decadent empires. Maybe studying Classics could help.

There are so many factors here, but at some level degrees are equal.

At what level?

I know some people would like to imagine that University of Puddleswick hands out 1sts like sweeties for English or History or Chemistry or, god forbid, Media Studies....but it really doesn't work like that.

So how does it work then?

I have no problem with people dropping £50k on doing a degree in whatever just out of interest - but I don’t think any 18 year old should be encouraged to take out a loan to do it. if they don’t know what they want to do and why - they’re better off making a different choice. Doesn’t mean they can’t get the degree later - when they are better informed and financially more stable.

The financial ‘benefit’ of a degree disappears when too many people have them. Supply and demand. No one is paying more for the degree if everyone and your aunt Thelma has one.

Thanks for this.

I'm also in the US and my kids finished uni here in 2022 and in May of this year. Another aspect of the tuition charged here that's not generally understood is that the unis offer something called "merit aid" to attract the most qualified students to attend. Students here take one of two standardized admissions test - the SAT or the ACT - for uni. The published college rankings rely heavily on the average SAT and ACT scores of the most recently admitted cohort to determine how selective/prestigious the uni is. So if your applicant will provide an above average SAT or ACT score, the uni will incentivize them to attend by offering more merit aid, which results in a lower tuition fee.

So, students here can pay less by going to a state school, some of which are excellent and selective, or they can pay less by going to a less selective private university that will offer them a lot of merit aid.

We also have a tax advantaged savings/investment account that parents or other relatives can open for children. Money invested grows tax-free until it is used to pay for uni or vocational school or other education-related expenses. We opened these accounts (called 529 Plan accounts) for both kids when they were toddlers and invested money in them every month. We could also deduct everything we contributed from our income subject to state income taxes, which made saving in the accounts more affordable. By the time they were ready for uni, we had over half of what was needed saved. Both kids graduated from uni with no student debt at all.

So, the situation here for university affordability is not as grim as you might think from the headlines.

I know you are just being goady, but anyway, it works in this way: lecturers set work and then they mark that work and they don't just randomly give marks but give marks the work is worth and then they have tutorials and students work through feedback, and, sometimes, students who come in with low tariffs, really get into their stride and write better and better essays or really blossom to learn their skills and if that happens they get good degrees. If it does not, just like at the all holy Oxford and Cambridge, they get paltry thirds. And this has been overseen by external examiners - and no, these are not shitty examiners from equally shifty institutions like our shitty ones….not always. Sometimes even amazing golden lecturers from Oxford are external examiners for shitty universitypies (charity work clearly) Sometimes those golden starts even teach at University of Crap. Unbelievable, eh!. What do you want me to say? Yes, poorer students may need to work through college, This impacts the time that they can take to do their work. Some of those will not get the highest possible class….and some will drop out - more often than students who have a lot of parental backup. Somewhat more heroicmif they do get through it all though…but some of you will say, shit degree from university of shitsville. Shut it down.

I was responding to those saying kids shouldn’t do drama etc. and that some degrees will help you ‘make more money than others’ Media studies for example can lead to good jobs - here we all are tapping away on a social media site for example.

I did study some classics and I take some of it back - hadestown was very good

The Ivy League do not offer any merit to anyone however, only financial aid to those who are genuinely from much poorer backgrounds and can prove that (inner city, rural farms etc).

We are from the UK living long term in California. If our kid went to a UC and paid instate tuition of roughly $15000 a year for 4 yrs, plus accommodation and food of aprox $20k per year, we'd still be paying about $40k more than it would cost sending them to many of the places in the UK for 3 yrs where they have recently increased their international fees exponentially.

The Ivy League do not offer any merit to anyone however, only financial aid to those who are genuinely from much poorer backgrounds and can prove that (inner city, rural farms etc).

Only 0.3% of students in the US attend an Ivy League university, so I'm not sure how this is relevant. They don't need to offer merit aid as they are already at the top of the rankings. There are many, many excellent universities that do offer merit aid.

If it's less expensive for you to send your kids to uni in the UK, that's what you should do. I never implied that in all cases it was less expensive here, only that there are affordable choices in the US.

but some of you will say, shit degree from university of shitsville.

I wouldn't go that far, no.

I do maintain my view that there is huge variation in terms of Universities and degrees and that many courses are not worth the money we're all spending on them.

Even the Department of Education seems to agree:

"University courses that fail to deliver good outcomes, with high drop-out rates and poor employment prospects will be subject to strict controls."

You sound offended by my post. I honestly don't know why that should be, but I apologize if it is the case.

That DoE statement was from the last govt and was to do with them pushing forward the market in education that they favour. They were longing for collapse as a rationalizing of the sector. That has nothing to do with the social value of places that transform lives and regions.

Even the Department of Education seems to agree:

University courses that fail to deliver good outcomes, with high drop-out rates and poor employment prospects will be subject to strict controls."

And how many are actually subject to strict controls? A handful, none of which (AFAIK) have university status.

My apologies if I came across that way.

You seemed to be implying that merit aid wasn't relevant, as the Ivy League schools do not offer it. What the Ivy League offers or doesn't offer isn't an issue for the vast majority of students who don't attend an IL school.

I understand that most non-IL universities have no name recognition in the UK, and this sometimes comes across as an attitude that there's no benefit to attending university in the US if you can't go to a member of the IL.

If you have a daughter, look at the seven sisters. My daughter attended one. They're all outstanding, and they all offer merit aid. There are the service academies, which are all tuition-free.

The Wall Street Journal just ran an article about how attendance is surging at universities in the South, in part because they offer substantially lower tuition and fees.

Sorry, Harvard. Everyone Wants to Go to College in the South Now. The likes of Georgia Tech, Clemson and Ole Miss are drawing students from the North who want to have fun and save on tuition. - The shift is boosting the economies of cities across the region. Georgia Tech’s cheer squad leads football players onto the field in September.

There are many great options in the US beyond the Ivy League.

Haven't read all the thread and am answering the original question.

I had previously thought of paying DD's university tuition fees upfront but according to Martin Lewis that's a bad idea and financial help should be given in the form of property help instead.

Feels like the best thing is to buy a property outright or near to it (somewhere where that's still possible) and tell her to never earn more than the threshold for repayment.

Hull looks nice - seems to be some reasonably cheap property and a buzzing arts scene!

So no, the increase doesn't affect that scenario. Although DD may have some issues with being told where to live.

What do people think all the excess is? Sunderland University has today announced loss of another 10 percent of its staff. Afew years ago it stripped out bad such as History, Politics, Languages….taking away choice for those who cannot leave Sunderland. Look at their course portfolio. All vocational, skills based, yet these will be the type of places to shut if we carry on in this mad way with fees, dumping on non Elite institutions and general philistinism and ignorance. I do ‘t see oversupply of so called useless courses.…

Yes and when asked to say which course, we got a mumbled "oh everyone knows there are courses that don't deliver value for money... " which ones? could not be answered.