So tuition fees are increasing. Will this change your DC’s thoughts on university

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It’s much needed for the sector but with tuition fees increasing and accommodation being eye wateringly expensive will this change your DCs view on university? It’s so expensive and the interest in student loans starts from day one so racks up really quickly.

I feel grateful to have gone in the days of grants but have one at university and one in year 13 and it’s really something you need to evaluate carefully to see whether it’s worth it.

I still suspect it won’t be enough to save the universities that are on the brink of collapse unfortunately.

@ViciousCurrentBun she’s got a pretty good work ethic so far (does homework on the day, participates in wider activities in the local and school community, takes the time to earn badges at guides, etc). We encourage and reinforce wherever possible as after 4 decades I have seen a lot of success dependent on sheer will and drive.

Our local area has a lot of STEM organisations around which is where her main interests lie, so I’m fairly hopeful that she could get training with one of them.

My eldest is planning on a degree in 3D animation and virtual effects - may take her into game design, the film industry (special effects or animation) or advertising/marketing if she’s desperate. She dithered because of the the anti-creatives narrative, the fear that not having an academic degree from a RG uni will be a waste of money and time, and generally feeling shamed that she is doing what other people may deem to be a Mickey mouse degree. However, gaming/film is one of the biggest earners in the UK, world leading in fact.

It finally took mum going back to school after 15 years at home, doing an MA and now a PhD in a creative subject and seeing me get a bloody decent salaried job offer for next year - in my fifties having been a SAHM for 19 years, to realise that this is a SM narrative and that there are jobs out there, whole new careers, and starting at 22 she has a life ahead of her full of exciting creative roles and projects.

Sick of the inverted snobbery. All degrees (in order to be approved by the CQC) develop critical thinking, research & writing skills, often also team skills and communication, deadline adherence and self-discipline. The subject matter of many so-called academic or business orientated degrees are no more valuable in the work place given online sources, AI and computer programmes that already do a large chunk of financial and legal work for you. Degrees are about more than expertise on one narrow subject, but we seem to have forgotten that.

Of course the creative industries are amazing and valuable, but they don’t pay well so for kids who do not have parental backing/help with housing etc it is a very difficult choice to make.

Not really, they haven't. The general consensus of research has always been, and this is globally, that education is of both individual & societal benefit.

I did an English degree. It was a complete waste of time because there was nothing new from A level and the lecturers didn't want to do anything beyond go on sabbaticals. I was shocked at how little interest they had in the students. Many of our seminars were passed on to masters students to teach, and they would ask questions like "What did you think of Paradise Lost?" 😂

By halfway through the third year I knew that nothing I did would change my final grade either way, so the last six months were even more pointless.

Unless it's for something like law or medicine, when someone asks my opinion on going to uni I tell them to skip it. It's much better to get a junior job in the area you want to work, or even just any job in a company you want to work for. That way they pay you to learn, you use industry tools and software that you could never afford without having to pay, and you can switch to whatever you like instead if you don't love it.

This is especially important in creative industries like film and video game design where it sounds amazing in theory, but the reality of the working environments is very different (high stress, lots of politics, need the patience of a saint, much more fun to be an end user).

The people I see doing this are a lot more independent from an earlier age. They can afford a car and to move out of home earlier, and save more for a house deposit sooner.

I honestly don’t get this mindset where it proves someone is capable of studying at degree level. Lots of people who don’t do degrees are just as capable. Other than the obvious degrees like medicine and engineering, a degree is basically a very expensive passport. You need a passport to enter a country, you need a passport to get a job. If a company employed two people but they didn’t know which one had the history degree how would that prove anything.

I did my first degree when I was 30-33. It taught me a huge amount about critical analysis, reasoned thinking and writing, doing presentations etc. It gave me a huge amount of confidence to know I was capable of studying and passing a degree. I got a first. There is no way I would have done the things I have done in life without it and the foundations it gave me, and I say that even though I knew I was very bright (Mensa member). I think people have forgotten how much they developed and learned at University. I went on to do a Masters and now I'm a lecturer. My degree was invaluable.

I honestly don’t get this mindset where it proves someone is capable of studying at degree level. Lots of people who don’t do degrees are just as capable.

Well yeah, but a degree is an opportunity to develop skills that are wanted/needed by employers. That doesn't mean that non-graduates aren't capable of progressing or developing skills in a different way.
But having a degree does prove that someone is capable of studying at degree level and that is valued by many employers.

Other than the obvious degrees like medicine and engineering, a degree is basically a very expensive passport. You need a passport to enter a country, you need a passport to get a job.

This would only be true if you thought that only 'obvious' degrees develop skills and attributes valued in the labour market. Which isn't true. Your passport analogy suggests that degrees are just given out/purchased and doesn't acknowledge that an individual has to earn that degree by developing skills and knowledge and applying that in a tangible way in order to be awarded a degree.

If a company employed two people but they didn’t know which one had the history degree how would that prove anything.

What do you want it to prove? Are you suggesting a history degree is pointless?

I do think students will compensate by staying at home and commuting. At least two of mine will aim for London unis now and they are now officially the best in the country anyway.

I’m interested to know why you are buying into this any degree matters view? I totally understand that some degrees are necessary as the knowledge needed is specialised (one of mine is doing an hard engineering one) but how do you think people without degrees managed to get good jobs year’s ago? Do only degree holders (any degree) possess critical thinking skills, work ethic, common sense etc.

Non degree holders of old were not Neanderthals lumbering incompetently from one job to another and neither are they today.

There must be a personal reason why you are adamant that degree holders are more valuable in the workplace even when the degree is not relevant to the job.

People attending University has risen from 10% to 38%. Someone has to pay and in theory being a graduate used to mean you earned far more over a lifetime. I remember we were given the figures to quote on open days and it was 250k, this is around 18 years ago. DH and I were young members of staff when tuition fees hit. I remember being very anti the move at the time. Blair messed up big time with his policy to broaden HE so much.

As a society it makes no sense to fund (with our taxes) so many new courses. It's a huge waste of all our money

There was this idea that university had to be open to absolutely everyone. I looked at one university handing out offers to people with three E grades

Yes, that's the issue.

We need to reduce the amount of courses offered to those that actually add value - ideally all students then earn enough to pay back all of their student loans.

It's inefficient if the rest of society funds useless courses

There was this idea that university had to be open to absolutely everyone. I looked at one university handing out offers to people with three E grades

And yet there is a belief among some that all degrees are equal, regardless of the university that awards them.

@BunnyLake I'm an expert in graduate employability. That's why.
It's my job to understand the graduate labour market and understand what employers are looking for. In any given year, up to 80% of graduate job don't specify a particular degree subject. It is the skills that are important.

The focus on skills is only going to become more pronounced. We have a dynamic labour market. We need people who have the skills and resilience to navigate a dynamic, unstable and uncertain labour market.

how do you think people without degrees managed to get good jobs year’s ago? Do only degree holders (any degree) possess critical thinking skills, work ethic, common sense etc.

I haven't said that at all. However, the labour market has changed. You can't compare now to even 10 or 20 years ago. Also, employers expect you to be able to demonstrate that they have these skills. A degree is one way of doing that.

Non degree holders of old were not Neanderthals lumbering incompetently from one job to another and neither are they today.

At no point have I said this. You are putting words in my mouth.

There must be a personal reason why you are adamant that degree holders are more valuable in the workplace even when the degree is not relevant to the job.

Again, I haven't said this.
I have said that I disagree with you (and others) who claim that only certain degrees are valuable. Because that's simply not true. My reason is over 20 years of working in career and employability and the knowledge and expertise that brings with it.

@SerenityNowSerenityNow I could see you had a vested interest.

The whole thing has become a Catch-22.

I could see you had a vested interest.

A professional interest. It doesn't impact me personally like you suggest.
I'm just outlining the facts.

Utterly bizarre and ignorant in equal measure. I sense the poster making those entirely unfounded statements (who disappeared after being called on it) would have benefitted themselves from further education, in any form possible.

The point is not that there is no other way of demonstrating skills other than a degree. However, employers used to be willing to train people on the job, they arent anymore. Partly because those businesses used to be bigger, but also because instead of a job for life - the best way to make a career is to move employers i.e. from an employer's point of view - when people used to stay working for 20/30 years, there was a point in training young people but now that people move jobs every two or three years - it doesnt make sense.

In addition, a lot of jobs have become automated and require higher skills e.g. nurses are expected to know and do a lot more than in the past, not only when it comes to machines but also in terms of expertise. Was talking to a mate of mine who is senior HR - her point most things are now automated so HR is increasingly having to show their value added i.e. it's become more complex than ever before. Quite a few simple tasks are now done by computers so entry level jobs are more complex than ever before.

So the question is less - is a degree worth but rather - who will give you the necessary training/skills to get a career going?

And yet there is a belief among some that all degrees are equal, regardless of the university that awards them.

Nobody believes that, surely

Also, yes, why do many other countries of comparable status to England manage it without saying - oh actually only the wealthy should go and people should only study a really really narrow set of subjects

Nothing to do with being wealthy (as there is no tuition fee in Germany) nor a narrow range of subjects, but the courses there are much harder and only the best/most suitable/hardworking actually pass.

Here in the UK too many degrees are too easy and not rigorous enough - and that's a waste of all our money

Show me what degrees are oo easy. This is nonsense,
And yiu misunderstand about Germany, where I have studied. I am saying that the argument in the Uk seems to be only the wealthy should go to uni or do finance or something. It is bizarre.
And the point about no other body being prepared to train people is really important. Universities have been compelled to take over that role in the absence of any other provider, because businesses are just gonna budpsiness. Just be what they learnt in their spurious MBAs.

Apols for typos. So fuming.

Also staff numbers have been cut right down. Partly automation means fewer people are needed to do the lower level tasks and partly the drive to work more efficiently and remove any 'slack'. In my sector 20 years ago there used to be people employed to fill in gaps to cover holiday and sickness leave. That doesn't exist now, you just have to muddle on through and hope someone isn't off sick for long!

That means there isn't the capacity to offer training places to younger people just starting out. As it means paying both the person spending a lot of time training and the person starting out, who won't be able to do much for a while, then will leave once they're trained up.

I have seen it on here. Admittedly, from people who have little or no experience of higher education. There is a presumption that degrees have a common value like A levels, so it doesn’t matter where you go to get one.