Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

And @GinForBreakfast i think we should all remember that the league tables are made up by newspapers based on data that can be up to 6 years old - TEF and REF particularly.

Yes, indeed. League tables are made up by newspapers to sell newspapers and advertising.

I very much agree with these points. As long as there is no cap, and funding is per student/via bums on seats, we don't have a system that is serving young people or those funding it.

Tbf lifting the cap is an essential aspect of the marketisation of the HE sector. By limiting growth you bake in the status quo, meaning the up and coming orgs are disadvantaged.

That's assuming that you agree with the marketisation of HE...

@GinForBreakfast It was not essential to market aggressively. Look at the fall out rates at some unis. We, by 13/14 had seen a massive expansion of the uni sector. We didn’t need more of it. You fall into the trap of believing the dc at uni need to be there. Plenty don’t.

Why do we think we need 5 unis in Leeds? They can be one uni but “sold” as different institutions. Like Exeter and Falmouth. Different tariffs at each campus. This needs to happen and we need to cut overheads and be more rigorous about grad outcomes.

Just to add: when I say plenty don’t, it’s because I believe the lower tier of HE barely exists now. It’s a massive mistake for lots of vocational and practical careers. They don’t all need to be degrees, certainly some arts do not. We should spend money where we need to. Parents spend too much and dc don’t see the benefit of the expenditure. Locally delivered but not degree courses would be more beneficial than expensive degrees and unis going out of business.

I don't know. It depends what the aim is and who it is supposed to serve. I think young people deserve a system that serve then first and foremost. I'm not sure they have the benefit of real choice. I'm not convinced they are the ones gaining from the current system.

@TizerorFizz I'm not particularly advocating for any specific course of action. Just observing that there are many intricate, interconnected moving parts to the system that need to be considered.

Like the level 7 degree apprenticeship announcement made this week. I don't think it will achieve what they want it to achieve.

Masters will go to existing employees and that’s the big issue with undergrad at level 6 too. Great for retraining but not easy for 18 year olds to access them. You will have to enlighten me on the changes @GinForBreakfast and what you think will happen.

I do agree there are lots of problems but businesses (unis) do have to change. A business is organic - if they were not reflecting circumstances, we would still have coal mines and, 100 years ago, 183 companies making cars in the UK. Amalgamation and making a better product is the way forward. You do find that if people cannot buy a Rolls Royce they will accept a mini as long as the price and quality meet requirements. This business attitude is missing in HE. Pretending every degree is a Rolls Royce is foolish and charging a flat fee for inferior quality is also a con. It’s not great value for the student or country . Reviving local cheaper HE should be considered for the mini equivalent, (I like minis - I have one!)

https://wonkhe.com/blogs/a-bluffers-guide-to-the-universities-uk-blueprint-for-he-policy-under-labour/

WonkHE take on the Blueprint for the Future from UUK. Includes a link to the full UUKbreport.

I suspect the 70% figure will provide endless opportunities for widespread misreporting and associated wider public misunderstanding.

I had to chuckle earlier when I read the article in The Times about what Universities UK are proposing. To paraphrase the late Mandy Rice-Davies: “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”

@westisbest1982 It’s easy to keep asking for more and more money without accountability. They don’t take accountability to all students seriously. They treat them as income, except it’s taxpayer funded. They don’t take accountability to the tax payer seriously either.

Masters will go to existing employees and that’s the big issue with undergrad at level 6 too. Great for retraining but not easy for 18 year olds to access them. You will have to enlighten me on the changes and what you think will happen.

No real detail and not imminent but so far generally greeted with dismay. IMV restricting levy spending on level 6/7 will not result in more opportunities for 18 year olds. It will also potentially hit the NHS hard. We'll see what the consultation throws up.

It’s easy to keep asking for more and more money without accountability. They don’t take accountability to all students seriously.

This is utter rubbish. I have a 3 hour meeting in 2 days' time of all colleagues involved in undergrad teaching in my School, looking at details of our NSS results, plus two further in-house surveys, plus the qualitative feedback we received from a series of undergrad student focus groups some colleagues ran last academic year. We'll develop an action plan which will filter into our daily teaching and guidance of undergrads.

That's just one School in a larger university, but the academic staff hours we spend on this sort of thing is likely to total in the high hundreds.

The probationary arrangements for junior staff, and the appraisal of HoDs at my place all take into account these sorts of data.

@YellowAsteroid I think you are missing the point. I can assure you students in many areas of study feel short changed. They don’t see lecturers. Their time with personal tutors is reduced. They see jobs being difficult to get. They see increased living costs. They don’t all agree they are getting a superior product. They probably think lecturers spend too long in meetings!

I just don't recognise your characterisation of HE @TizerorFizz, but maybe you have had the misfortune of being around really terrible universities. The NSS results show the large majority of students are content.

www.officeforstudents.org.uk/data-and-analysis/national-student-survey-data/

Meanwhile my colleagues report record levels of non-attendance at lectures etc. My friend teaches a final year elective module, he has 50% attendance and 95% never contact his during his office hours. And yes. He's an excellent lecturer (gets nominated for teaching awards by the students who do show up).

How many students are you speaking to?Student experience is taken very seriously at my university (and every other university I've ever worked at) and that's is reflected in our NSS and ISB data as well as the internal measures.

I think @TizerorFizz 's opinions are in inverse proportion to her knowledge.

Anecdote is not the singular of data.

@YellowAsteroid You are SO clever! Just listen to the radio. To journalists. Read the newspapers! All are saying students are not finding teaching as they thought and parents likewise. They are really worried about value for money. @ElaineMBenes On many threads you seem to think costs matter and value matters. Just not now. No wonder unis might close! Deaf!

I prefer to study the NSS results, and listen to our in-house surveys of actual undergraduates.

Students are extremely positive about university experience right across the sector. Look at NSS and listen to students.

How many journalists speak to actual students?! The nationals don't. The BBC don't. They listen to politicians. And their editors. If you want to read journalists who know what they're talking about, try the Times Higher, WonkHE or Research Professional.

On many threads you seem to think costs matter and value matters. Just not now. No wonder unis might close! Deaf!

Eh? It's literally my job to listen to students (I'm responsible for student experience in my faculty). I'm very in tune with what students want and expect. I speak to students regularly and have access to high level, granular data.

You on the other hand are getting your information from the media which, in the UK at least, is known for its anti HE rhetoric. And you've bought into it hook, line and sinker.

Most students will say that they are enjoying their university experience.

At the same time, whilst enjoying their expensive party (I mean degree) at university, young people may not consider how long it will take them to pay back the debt,
They may also feel that they don't have a choice about doing a degree if they want to get a good job.
They may also not know that a UK university degree is more expensive than other countries so they are none the wiser.
They may be happy to only have to 12 hours of lectures a week because who isn't happy doing less work. However, whether this is good value for money is another question.
I just hope that more employers will realise that they don't need a degree for the jobs they are advertising. Many people I know are now saying that the people they are getting with a degree aren't really demonstrating the skills they want anyway at their company.
If companies start not requiring a degree for jobs that don't need a degree, then we can stop this expensive farce of students going to university who don't really want to study and who are just getting themselves in debt.