Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

Just to point out (not for the first time), that A level grades may tell you something about the teenagers starting an undergraduate course, but they really tell you very little about the graduates leaving university 3 or 4 years later.

There are so many reasons that this should be the case, both within and outside a school setting, which are to a degree (sic) are evened out at university, that I can't really be bothered to list them all (again!). But suffice to say that the vast majority of employers don't give a monkey's about A level grades when recruiting graduates.

And in our experience universities don't even ask for A level grades when looking at Masters applications, though I stand to be corrected on this by those who know more about the tertiary sector than I do.

I’ll try @LadeOde but I’m on my phone so I’ll have to be brief.

I’d also say that very few academics would say that research is only relevant or beneficial for teaching postgrads. I suspect that is an assertion by someone who has no experience of teaching at a university.

I think in the sciences it’s pretty self-evident that UG modules and whole degree programmes need to be up to date. Imagine teaching medical science according to the text books from even only 10 years ago?

Certain basics endure in any discipline, and those are usually taught at first year level, to be built upon and developed in subsequent years.

But I’m in the middle of a large internationally funded project, on basket weaving (not really, but anonymity and all that). I’m teaching a couple of modules alongside that at 1st and 3rd year levels. I’m incorporating some of the materials from the archives of basket weaving as I go. At first year level, it’s in a series of lectures I do about methodology. So I explain the project and how we’re going about archival discovery.

At 3rd year level, I involve the students in mini research projects around the project itself. And I always learn from their insights which can be fresh and interesting. I tell them about my team’s research and we go over the steps in detail that we’re taking. The kids generally enjoy being at the cutting edge of knowledge about the history of basketball weaving and they get quite excited by doing original work in the field.

Oh, that was quite long! 😂

@FoxedByACat My DD paid off her loan years ago. Thanks for asking.

@thing47 Yes I know A level grades are not everything but it’s the level of excellence at the university I was getting at. It’s clear a uni running a non accredited course and no MEng, cannot be, by definition, a centre of excellence.

On these thread's it's usually asserted that 'Research' led unis only benefit post grads. as a way of dismissing the whole RG uni hype, from what you've just posted it seems to benefit undergrads as well. Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

Being a research active academic means I'm actively engaged with my wider subject. It means my teaching is up to date through my own research or engaging with other academics and their research.

I work at a post 92 university but we place a huge amount of importance on research.

University accommodation is for single adults.

How is a 44 storey tower block with just under 1000 beds accommodation for single adults? Especially when subdivided into flats with a shared kitchen and living room. These high rise blocks are the way forward for student living and are what are currently being built in many places, often by private providers. They’re building them in areas where families don’t want to live. Such blocks which are the way forward take up a very small footprint of land.

If people actually do some research rather than just spouting their opinions and read stuff like Manchester City Council’s student accommodation plan there is a lot of research that has gone into what sort of accommodation should be built and where in the city it should be built with a focus on alleviating pressure on housing for families.

Even where students are in a converted house it’s not a single adult in a house. Every bedroom would be filled and likely downstairs rooms converted to bedrooms too. I appreciate this doesn’t help the local residents from both a neighbourhood pov or the fact it removes a house from “residential” stock but as I said before these students are still people and would need to live somewhere whether they were a student or not.

Maybe @TizerorFizz thinks students should have shared bedrooms? I believe Edinburgh still do this in some halls. Maybe they should build dormitories?

I fully agree that some universities are better than others. But that person with an engineering degree from Northampton university (for example) is quite likely to get a job as an engineer at some point. Certainly has more of a chance than with no degree.

We can’t just have degrees at universities which are centres of excellence/research as that’s not fair on the more middle achieving 18yo who is still perfectly capable of getting a degree and a graduate job. It would be quite elitist to say unless you get the grades for Bath, York, Warwick, etc then bugger off and forget about university.

Yes I do think there needs to be standards for all degrees across all universities. But I do also believe in education for education’s sake. 30 years ago we weren’t as concerned about graduate outcomes and employability. I went to an old poly for my first degree and did a subject which was probably never really going to get me very far. But i enjoyed the subject and gained all sorts of transferable skills. I’m sure even people doing art degrees must gain some sort of skills other than just painting. There needs to be transparency but 18yos are adults and can make choices about what they want to do and if they think it’s worth it.

And she still probably cost the university more than she paid seeing as universities say it costs more than 9.2k a year per student. So still not funding the HE sector. 👍

I know someone who did a non accredited engineering degree at an ex poly. He then applied and got accredited as an engineer and is an IEng. Earns over 100k, so I think he’s quite happy with his lower ranked uni and course choice.

I know next to nothing about engineering (apart from having a godchild currently studying it), so not qualified to opine on that @TizerorFizz

But in biomed for example, a field I do know a bit about, some courses are IBMS certified and some are not. If your course is not, you may (definitely for NHS work) have to take additional courses after graduating. However the IBMS-accredited courses are not uniformly better, that is for certain.

I do think there is a case for some more blue-sky thinking about university education - tinkering around the edges probably won't be sufficient, as we have seen with the NHS - so chucking radical suggestions into the mix is a worthwhile exercise and I don't think posters should be slated for that, even if it turns out they aren't practical. if outsiders looking in never brought value of a different perspective, no one would ever use consultants...😂

@YellowAsteroid That was very informative and interesting and definitely not too long and loved the 'basket weaving' anonymity .
After yrs of reading the same thing on MN, it has become almost fact. So my next question is, non RG unis must use latest/ongoing research to inform their undergrad teaching as well, to what extent is this more superior in an RG uni? is it anything to do with where their research has been published?

So I teach a degree subject where knowledge and practice relating to the degree is constantly changing. Academics at universities across the U.K. and around the world will undertake research alongside teaching students. That research benefits members of the public due to advances in practice. I obviously need to teach my undergraduate students the up to date knowledge. So my UG teaching is underpinned by research. I teach the students how to critically analyse the research using CASP tools, etc to evaluate whether it’s trustworthy evidence or not rather than just blindly accepting it.

I think some people get a bit confused about RG hype and whether it benefits UG students or not. In some ways I suppose no. It’s very possible to be a non RG university and still teach up to date content. It’s very possible to work at a non RG university and still do good and important research. Ime a RG university will have more of a research focus so will have more staff employed on research only contracts (rather than a teaching and research contract). There is therefore more output as that’s all they do. And that side of things doesn’t matter to an UG student. These research specialists are unlikely to teach UG students but may well supervise PG students for dissertations and doctorates.

I do think there is a case for some more blue-sky thinking about university education - tinkering around the edges probably won't be sufficient, as we have seen with the NHS - so chucking radical suggestions into the mix is a worthwhile exercise and I don't think posters should be slated for that, even if it turns out they aren't practical. if outsiders looking in never brought value of a different perspective, no one would ever use consultants...😂

Totally agree with this, I love a bit of blue sky thinking. But if I do see a suggestion i don’t think will work I am going to say why with my experience of working in HE i don’t think it will work. Thats not being resistant to change or new ideas. I’d welcome something which improves the situation for all. So it’s rather frustrating to then just be accused of sticking my head in the sand and refusing to change when that accusation is untrue. I suppose I would also be cautious when people with no understanding of pedagogy are making suggestions just from a money saving pov without considering the impact. I think that’s a sad angle to come at the situation from when there’s hopefully better alternatives.

@FoxedByACat Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned 'tools', does your research inform what the lastest tech is being used industry so that university resources are up to date? Apps & programming languages or tools, etc , from my experience it seems there some disconnect in this area and it's more prevalent in the newer universities.

I've seen quite a few Masters applications this year and they all required full disclosure of school examination results. To be fair, quite a lot of students have skills acquired at school (in, say, Mathematics or Modern Foreign Languages) that may be extremely relevant to postgraduate education and future employment but that have not necessarily been developed further on undergraduate degree courses.

Academic research in my area absolutely changes industry practice 100%. Yearly changes. I work in a healthcare degree, so the research is life saving hopefully.

I fully agree that students no matter what their degree subject is also learn broader skills which make them an asset to an employer. The ability to interpret information, work to deadlines, write succinctly and clearly. It’s a shame that so many people talk about worthless degrees.

If you look at MFL for example, many universities are cutting these courses now. There aren’t many careers these days where a specific MFL course would be useful and AI will increase this school of thought. This may be why student numbers are dropping and courses are being cut.

It’s a shame for those students who like MFL and want to study it but I guess this is the sort of stuff universities need to look at. Archeology is another subject where you can argue there’s barely any jobs for graduates and again courses are being cut.

We seemed to have lost sight of the wider benefits of reading for a degree. Perhaps that is a luxury we can no longer afford and need to dump such “useless” degrees. History, English literature, etc. Just focus on subjects like healthcare, engineering, law, maybe a few limited psychology courses, marketing would maybe be OK.

30 years ago we weren’t as concerned about graduate outcomes and employability.

Not totally convinced that was wholly the case. Going back even further take the Jarrett Report from 1985. First buller on external performance measures:

acceptability of graduates (postgraduates) in employment

Roll on just over a decade to the Dearing Review - again a focus on graduate outcomes (along with many other things - quite a chunky document).

For those with the odd few hours to spare:

https://www.education-uk.org/documents/jarratt1985/index.html#10 Jarrett

and, for those really up for putting in the hrs weeks

https://education-uk.org/documents/dearing1997/dearing1997.html Dearing

What did really strike me were the first three recommendations from the former :

(a) Government should provide broad policy guidelines within which the UGC and individual universities can undertake strategic and long term planning.

(b) Government should consider what action can be taken to restore a longer funding horizon for universities in view of the disincentives to strategic planning inherent in the present system.

(c) Government should avoid thrusting crises on universities by sudden short term changes of course.

All of which the sector still seems to be waiting on forty years later.

Perhaps that is a luxury we can no longer afford and need to dump such “useless” degrees. History, English literature, etc. Just focus on subjects like healthcare, engineering, law, maybe a few limited psychology courses, marketing would maybe be OK.

Except they aren't 'useless'. Subjects like history are sought after by employers.
I've mentioned this already but we're in a labour market where 86% of graduate employers don't ask for a specific degree subject.
We need to ensure that students are using their time at university to develop the skills required by employers.

We seemed to have lost sight of the wider benefits of reading for a degree

absolutely @FoxedByACat

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08841241.2021.2006853#d1e199

provides an interesting longer term background, and a catchy title to boot Post Browne Review: a reflective analysis of marketisation dilemmas of senior managers in English universities Peublished in 2021

Includes this summary table of post war "progression"

Yes I completely agree, I was being slightly facetious. Sorry if that wasn’t obvious. 😁. But sadly many (uninformed) people do think this.

Not totally convinced that was wholly the case. Going back even further take the Jarrett Report from 1985. First buller on external performance measures

yes you’re probably right. The universities may well have been bothered but I don’t think students (and parents) were as bothered. Maybe because we weren’t paying for tuition? It’s easier to spend 3 years doing something you like doing and not worry about the end result if you’re not paying for the privilege (apart from living costs).

I have to admit to falling into a subset , or maybe a spin-off, of @GCAcademic's "Parents with Children at University", being now "Parents with Children all now graduated from University"

However it seems that the sector has review after review "done" to it, and yet the fundamental challenges still remain. That's not a criticism of those working or used to work in the sector btw.

In the last 30 years - Dearing, then Browne, then Augur. Has Brown (G and no "e" ) done something recently as well?. Goalposts seem to be consrantly moved. Other government policies impact the sector, though seemingly without any thought as to the wider national trade-off returns ffor those policies which negatively impact the sector.

To be blunt @GinForBreakfast you probably should have started these threads at least a decade ago. 🙂Because it seems that the sector is being asked to push water, or depending on day of the week some other liquid, constantly up-hill.

And there’s yet another review coming out in June….

Those who wonder at the point of English and History degrees may not be quite so complacent at their demise when their grandchildren’s English GCSE teachers are Computer Science grads…