Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

Blimey, I need to go to Specsavers. I read that as the Russell Brand group.

Given the volume of research that was graded "internationally excellent" or "world leading" in the last REF (84%) it's definitely going to be on the larger side of things.

Well, let’s let all the armchair experts run the UK HE system. Such good ideas.

Surely though part of the University of Northampton's USP is who it appeals to and provides for?

I'll play along with the RG hype. Lets compare Northampton with, equally for alliterative purposes, Nottingham uni.

What might key differences be - looking beyond the simplicity of league table position.

How about the proportion of mature students? At Nottingham its about 10%, at Northampton well past 40%. The latter in many respects meeting a very different need. In may view, not one that all may share, a still very valid need. At somewhere like Durham the mature student percentage is barely 5%.

Non-continuation rates might well be put forward as a counter to that. 96% at Nottingham, 88% at Northampton. Those working in the sector will no doubt have a better sense of the data around undergrad non-continuation and any significant differences for mature students. The latter likely facing different challenges to fresh-faced 18 / 19 year olds.

Northampton as a place gets a bit of a rough deal in general - isn't it also in population terms the UK's biggest non-city?

Just a load of old cobblers really.

Lincoln has a lot of purpose built student accommodation that is less likely to impact the local housing. Many students don't use private rentals housing at all. I think universities ought not to have been allowed to expand unless they could house 2/3 of the student population themselves.

I wasn't specifically talking about Lincoln but the fact that all universities are contributing to local economies.

PS, Lincoln is FULL of private student rentals. Entire roads round the football ground and on that road out of town towards the bypass and golf course.

Yes, the unconditional thing is smoke and mirrors too. Many of those are offered to mature students and those who have come through alternative educational routes. There are more of those at non RG, locally serving unis than at, for example, Exeter.

I do think that some posters forget that universities aren't just there to provide UG degrees to 18 -21 year olds.

Given the extras that students get and value at University does it not make more sense to compare it to private school education costs per child?

Lincoln has a lot of purpose built student accommodation that is less likely to impact the local housing. Many students don't use private rentals housing at all.

and yet oddly @fortyfifty Lincoln has the highest rate of homelessness for any council area, including both Nottingham and Leicester, in the East Midlands. Something not quite adding up.

I think universities ought not to have been allowed to expand unless they could house 2/3 of the student population themselves

Whilst that horse has long bolted its an interesting thought still. Now when you say universities presumably you mean most RGs / RG+, and no doubt we now have RG++ as well , the actual expansion distribution curve might come as a surprise, as it has been far from evenly spread, with a not insignificant number flatlining or indeed seeing a reduction in numbers.

One of the first on the expansion naughty step Bristol uni - 16,000 undergrads in 2014/15 almost 24,000 in 2023/24.

Durham just under 13,000 to just over 17,000

Exeter 16,000 to just under 24,000

York just under 13,000 to around 15,500, so not quite as marked as some

Ditto Sheffield (uni of not Hallam) 19,000 to just under 21,000

Southampton 16,000 to......16,000 - flatlining. And I can't ever recollect seeing a thread (coming back to your point) on accommodation issues - availability or cost - at Southampton, whereas Bristol sometimes seems like every other thread! I exaggerate somewhat of course, it's probably every third thread.

UCL has doubled in size over last 20 years. Is that cashing in on lifting the student cap (at expense of other non RG branded unis) or widening participation?

https://studentsunionucl.org/articles/200-years-of-ucl-student-data-part-2-global-patterns-of-student-mobility

Sorry @felissamy the link I posted really is not terribly useful. I should have read further beyond its title before linking to it.

Just on housing, the housing crisis has increased costs for students living in PBSAs as well as in HMOs / other residential. PBSAs are often built and run by private developers who can push rents up because of the wider housing shortage. So while PBSAs can mean that student populations contribute less overall to the housing shortage, typically this doesn’t influence affordability.

@boys3 I just picked out Northampton at random. There’s several universities in my orbit that are similar.

With regards to mature students, where did they go before 1992? I was a mature student. I went to a poly, and very good it was too. I went part time. Part time degree student numbers have fallen off a cliff. That is what we need to revive. Working and studying. Then students with responsibilities have a job and can afford a decent life. Studying will always take time but it’s not necessary for the vast majority of students to be full time.

@GinForBreakfast The massive provision of student halls has taken land away from housing allocations in many locations. The loss of building land that could be used for family homes very much affects prices as it creates a shortage of building land and that directly impacts on price. Look at London. Land shortage is a huge factor driving prices. This expansion of city living for students leads to more housing in the countryside for families. We then lose farming land.

Then cities need to build upwards like Manchester is currently doing with their skyscraper pbsa blocks in the city centre which are springing up. People need to live somewhere, if they weren’t students they’d still be people with housing needs. At least when students people tend to put up with rabbit hutch size accommodation, co sharing with strangers.

Since when are you judge and jury about how student money is spent? You in the HE sector are making a mess of it. People keep saying that but you don’t listen. You can continue to be ostriches but in the end jobs will go. Any high quality SLT will have to look at all costs and value for money. At the moment too many students are dissatisfied.

Possibly one of the most stupid and hypocritical posts in this thread.

Where is the evidence that we in the HE sector are making a mess?

• In the research excellence framework results
• In the NSS results?
• Or in the proportion of EU research council money we win in a highly competitive competition (hint: we come out pretty much tops)
• In research such as in the COVID vaccine, human fertility, the underlying mathematics for the WWW?

I should be able to work this out, but in case anyone knows off the top of their head; how much would the standard UG fees be now if they'd increased with inflation since introduced?

About £15k ... according to my vice chancellor.

@YellowAsteroid How rude and arrogant you are! The title of the thread tells you what the issue is. Universities have been poor at managing money. Billions of £ paid by others. Students don’t always think universities are great and you can cherry pick success but you cannot paper over the defects. Plus not all universities have this success and as for the WWW! The ultimate money loser due to the “no patent” stance of Tim Berners Lee.

Also @GCAcademic Do not keep shutting down discussion by attacking ideas you do not like. All ideas are valid. This is typical of the university sector.

Or they aren’t being given enough money? What else still costs the same as it effectively did in 2012? Ok it got raised from 9k to £9250 but that doesn’t scratch the surface. When you look at how the cost of everything else has gone through the roof! A previous poster was right in that if tuition fees had risen at the same rate they’d be around 15k now. The only reason they’re not currently 15k is political. I don’t know any other private sector business which has its fees capped by the govt. imagine if plumbers had been told they couldn’t increase their prices in a decade, how many would still be in business when their materials and costs have risen so much?

Universities have been poor at managing money. Billions of £ paid by others. Students don’t always think universities are great and you can cherry pick success but you cannot paper over the defects.

Evidence?

Or do you just enjoy negative posting @TizerorFizz ?