Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

We need a university sector that is prepared to say a student is not ok for the course. If they cannot do chunks of it, it’s the wrong course. In the first few weeks this needs sorting out. As for these students getting jobs? Is it any wonder employers are not interested? We need to recognise it’s ok to be nervous and apprehensive. If that feels too much, HE isn’t for you at the moment. Or marks are capped. We ruin the experience for the majority by being too kind.

do think it's partly due to a more general issue with mental health almost getting too much focus to the extent that younger people self-diagnose everyday, normal up and downs as 'conditions' e.g. depression and anxiety. But that's a discussion for another day!

Except that it’s an every day conversation for university teaching staff. I’ve just been working through a slew of student emails all wanting special consideration and several times emailing me (I’ve been on compassionate leave for the death of a parent). A lot of them didn’t follow instructions, or didn’t attend, or have otherwise not done what they should have. All have excuses (a lot of dead grandmothers every assessment period!)

But their incapacity becomes mine and my colleagues’ workload.

So is the UK seeing much better actual outcomes than other countries? And I'm sure I've also seen that class sizes in some research made little difference.

Or is it that this handholding is needed because somehow we have expanded uni provision to the point where too many YP - with frankly in some cases mediocre grades - are going to uni, geting into debt, when they would be better served in a different setting, with more practical support.

But this is where perhaps the balance has swung too far. It's also concerning if uni students are unable to follow instructions.

Again, I do wonder whether in some cases we just need to be firmer with students and perhaps cull more so that the right type of person goes to uni.

I realise this is probably also due to the fact that students pay for their education nowadays. If it wasn't the case, perhaps it would be easier for unis to be stricter around boundaries and the expectations of what students need to do and restrictions on 'extensions' etc.

I think large lectures can be fine in some disciplines. In mine it wouldn't work to have all large lectures but we could do more. The problem is you need large rooms to have large lectures and my university does not have very many.

I think the big structural change we need is the timetable, thinking of PGT as that's what I know. Cramming all study into September to March, 8-6 only, is such an inefficient use of resources. My faculty is trialling Term 3 teaching and classes 6-8 pm, this is totally normal in other countries and I'm for it.

I see messages on MN frequently - "recommend me a university that is excellent on student welfare and support because my DC has multiple issues that means they need will struggle with independent living / decision making / making friends / organisational skills / coping with pressure / participating in seminars / meeting deadines...." and I just despair. Of course universities should make reasonable adjustments for disabilities but if they are also expected to train people for careers the adjustments undermine the purpose of going to university in the first place!

So is the UK seeing much better actual outcomes than other countries?

Yes. We have much better retention rates than other European countries. We have much better results in widening participation than other European countries. Our students complete degrees in 3 years not 5 or 6

Back in the early 2000s I was a Director of a teaching research centre for my discipline. We were being briefed on the Bologna Agreement which was a move towards making educational qualifications uniform across the EU.

It was an interesting process, looking at the national differences, particularly over retention, cohort sizes, drop out rates and completion rates. The rest of Europe was initially sceptical of our 3 year degree, but the UK was able to show equivalence.

Because - we have generally much much smaller class sizes. We teach in much much smaller small group teaching (I know undergrads in Germany in “seminars” of 50 students), we focus on looking after the whole student - therefore mental and physical well being, guidance, care.

And so on.

The numbers of international students who see the value of the UKHE system should tell us something.

But if you parents want to trash the system for your DCs and their DCs, go ahead. I’m retiring in a few years when I hit 75.

I totally agree I'm ignorant! That's why I'm asking. All I have to go on is my own university experience in the 90s. But if I'm ignorant, many others are too and the sector needs to communicate better to the taxpayer (who ultimately pays the un-paid loans and bears the intermediate cash flow hit) why it costs what it does.

It does help when people give good explanations as previous posters have, and for which they have been thanked, rather than being rude. But thank you; I now know that legal texts are 4 figures each. Perhaps law degrees, which should lead to very high earning careers, should pay more than degrees which don't need such texts.

We do need to start looking for answers

I really struggle to understand the idea that the UK should send fewer people to university. At the individual level sure, people shouldn't be pressured to go to uni if it's not best for them. But as a nation? Do people not see how quickly the world is changing, how much more complex it is? How technologies are radically changing all kinds of sectors? Young people today are going to live and work in a very different world, do we not want the best educated population we can get?

By all means cut programmes that are poor quality, consolidate subjects, make sure university education is GOOD education. But to say ehhh, who needs so many educated people, just sounds crazy to me here in 2025.

So is the UK seeing much better actual outcomes than other countries?

Yes. Our higher education system is world class. We have excellent pastoral and student support. Our careers and employability work is world leading. In research terms we punch way above our weight.

But all of this is being eroded and it's devastating.

The problem with a transactional approach to education is you lose sight of the bigger picture and the benefits of education more generally.

But this is where perhaps the balance has swung too far. It's also concerning if uni students are unable to follow instructions.
Again, I do wonder whether in some cases we just need to be firmer with students and perhaps cull more so that the right type of person goes to uni.

Well, you’re the parents. You’re bringing them up to be like this.

I just teach them

I'm a parent who appreciates and respects universities in the UK, especially the research they produce. I've been very happy with DD's university experience and she's got far more out of it than we expected.

I don't think students should be burdened with higher fees, I think they should be funded more from central government (as they were not that long ago), I think employers who benefit from graduates should pay into the system and also think fewer people should do 3 year academic degrees, where a higher vocational qualification would better suit, e.g hotel management. So long as a top up year is available further down the road should someone wish to change careers and needs the degree. I think we need a government youth training scheme as apprenticeships aren't doing the job of offering an alternative pathway at all levels to all young people equally. Many go to university as they see no other viable path.

Perhaps the government could at least put it's hand in it's pocket to top up STEM courses which we are told can't be taught with the current fees of £9250. Or maybe STEM courses should be condensed to fewer institutions where resources can be directed.

We surely can't continue to rely on a university system run on the higher fees of overseas students nor keep expecting students to shoulder more debt. But I'm someone who thinks a higher educated population is good for a country, hence why I think the government should pay more (as well as students paying manageable fees)

Or is it that this handholding is needed because somehow we have expanded uni provision to the point where too many YP - with frankly in some cases mediocre grades - are going to uni, geting into debt, when they would be better served in a different setting, with more practical support.

Quite possibly but the problem is that universities run scared of module evaluations, year end evaluations and of course the NSS. They are constantly being asked if they feel supported enough. A lot of the time the answer might be no.

And then SLT look to the academics and say “what are you going to do”. Well let me see, I’m workload planned for 1 hr per year per personal student. I’m told I have to provide 3x personal tutorials a year and I timetable these in for 30 mins a time so I’m already 50% over the amount of support which the same SLT tell me I can provide.

And that’s before I deal with a single email or query from a student! I might get 20-30 emails a week, all of which need responding to. Some might be a quick email back but others I actually have to sort something out, email someone else, etc. Then there’s the students who do something they maybe shouldn’t have done and I need to deal with them, they’ve been mean to someone else in class and I have to deal with it, their attendance is shocking and needs looking at, they’ve committed an academic offence and it needs looking at.

My students go to nhs placement so that brings a wealth of issues. Staff emailing me complaining about students, students crying over specific incidents, students not getting their shifts, staff being mean to students, students upset as someone has died. I can’t just send them all to wellbeing as wellbeing won’t have a clue about placement stuff, the students want to talk to someone who’s done the job!

so all of this is above and beyond the hour I’m allowed per student per year and still SLT want to know what more we’re going to do. I don’t blame SLT, I’m sure they’re under pressure from higher up too. But someone somewhere needs to realise we can’t keep doing more with less! The job becomes stressful and unsustainable. And it’s not fair on the students.

I think employers who benefit from graduates should pay into the system

Thats an interesting point, not sure how it could be enforced. I guess for some careers and grad schemes it could be.

Did you know for healthcare courses the university have to pay the hospitals per student per week of placement? I think even the students don’t realise this sometimes! So the students feel like they’re “working for free” which is a complaint I hear from them a lot. But actually it’s worse than that because their fees are actually paying for them to “work for free”. And the nhs get paid a not insignificant sum of money and then get gifted trained staff! I do think the govt should pay more for this!

Surely the issue is not the close to 10k tuition cost - neither for student debt, nor for the Government/taxpayer.

The issue and real extra cost compared to other countries is the expectation that the State should fund the living costs (up front) of thousands of 18-21 year olds. I think we need to get away from that expectation and funnel some of the money saved back into actual higher education.
The quality of higher education is critical to the UK, it is one of the strengths of our service based economy. It is madness to be cutting at the 10k-12k level rather than raising it a bit more.

People should save for their own DCs to go to uni or they should attend local ones where possible. The aim should be to make sure as many as possible, in as many areas as possible, are commutable and of a high quality.

If rents and living costs had not gone up so much - surely that is the main problem?

I think only those first generation and from properly poor backgrounds should qualify for maintenance scholarships. Everyone else should attend a local university where available or put their hands in their pockets or remortgage. Higher Education should be properly valued and funded.
Even those who can afford to pay up are encouraged at every turn to tell their DCs to get loans, it is madness. The loans system is incredibly expensive and was a mistake.

I think a graduate employer levy is a model that has been proposed involving companies paying a levy to fund universities if they employ a graduate. Apparently, it is a popular model with students. However, I think many companies would only pay an extra levy for graduates where they view a graduate to offer more to them than a school leaver.

https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2024/04/11/graduate-employer-levy-a-practical-and-political-solution/

I am amazed by some people's posts that students are being offered 1 to 1s or such small group teaching. Now I know one of the reasons why universities are costing so much. I never had a 1 to 1 at my RG university apart from my viva. I did a STEM subject. My one seminar a term had 40+ students and my lectures had 100-200 students. It wasn't a problem if you did studied. If students can't learn or work independently, they are not going to be prepared for work. It sounds like universities are being too soft on students.

@Runemum not even for a personal tutorial?

I have to meet my tutees 3x a year, just for a chat, not for academic purposes .

50 hours a year of my time for this!

When did you go to university @Runemum

I've worked in HE a long time and seminar groups and 1:1 tutorials have always been a thing. Even when I was a student 27 years ago.

It sounds like universities are being too soft on students.

Or we're supporting a wider range of students 🤷🏼‍♀️ which is a good thing!!

I had one to one meetings twice a term with a supervisor, weekly two hour 2 or 3 to 1 tutorials and weekly three hour seminars with about 12 students in them. That was per module so if we did two at a time that doubled . Then lectures which I dutifully attended which were an hour and had form 3 to 103 attendees. That seems right even for now- about 6 hours contact time a week if doing one module. DS gets about the same now- not so much the tutorials but that varies.

I wasn't aware there was some formula applied that university was somehow 'better' if groups were huge. That's a new one.

@Araminta1003 makes some good points. Very few parents save for university in the UK compared to the US. A large part of UK student debt is because of living costs. Student rents have increased enormously, in part because of the availability of student loans.

As I said up thread, this is a fiendishly complex issue which can't be resolved by a handful of isolated changes.

A graduate levy on employers is just a tax, like the apprenticeship levy. Remember lots of graduate employers are public sector so increasing public sector costs ends up costing the tax payer, yet again....

I never had a 1 to 1 at my RG university apart from my viva. I did a STEM subject. My one seminar a term had 40+ students and my lectures had 100-200 students.

Isn't it great that universities' commitment to teaching quality and the student experience of learning has been improved so much since you were at university @Runemum

Indeed @ElaineMBenes I was reflecting on some of the attitudes on this thread, and how different mine and my colleagues' attitudes are.

We want everyone who wants to have a university education to have access to it, power is. no matter what their family situation or financial situation is.

We want to ensure that thopse with genuine disabilities aren't disadvantaged.

We want to widen participation, not narrow it.

I'm the third generation of university graduates in my family (mostly Oxbridge). It was easy for me. But I know it's not easy for the vast majority of university students. Do we want to go back to my father's cohort in the 1950s: male, upper middle class, and white?

@ElaineMBenes
I did have a 5 minute 1 to 1 at the end of each academic year to discuss results at university. I had no 1-2-1s other than this or small group tuition. I knew Durham and Oxbridge did small groups but I didn't know other universities did before today.

I think if universities need to economise, they can do large group lectures and seminars. Perhaps we need to let market forces decide what students/parents are willing to pay for. I think many students/parents would like to pay less. I personally do and I am willing to take large lectures/ seminars, less wellbeing provision, less of a careers service for this to happen. It is students/parents money so they should be able to decide how it is spent.

And to hell with a positive student experience eh?!