Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

Alongside degree apprenticeships and professional training, I'd also be looking at reducing the length of some degrees to just 2 years as an option, and cheaper fees for 100% online courses to give an alternative to the Open University

How would you propose to deliver accredited STEM courses 100% online? The Open University isn’t 100% online.

Delivering a 3 year course in 2 years wouldn’t necessarily make any difference to the total tuition fee.

@taxguru it's not necessarily that we are taking it personally. It's that we understand what we are working with. We all know it needs to change it's just that some of the suggestions being made are not practical or are already being done.

Alongside degree apprenticeships and professional training, I'd also be looking at reducing the length of some degrees to just 2 years as an option, and cheaper fees for 100% online courses to give an alternative to the Open University.

We offer a 2 year accelerated degree. People aren't interested. It appeals to some mature students but not to 18 year olds.
Same with online learning. Young people just don't want it.
I run DL courses at post grad level but there is very little interest from 18 year olds generally. We've done the market research.

”it’s an apprenticeship bureaucracy issue” - do you mean regulatory busy-bodying?

What does this actually mean?
Surely if everyone works together we can find better solutions for poorer talented students, in particular?

Surely lawyers and accountants can be turned out far more cheaply and to a high level, than medics and engineers, if streamlined?

Not all courses are STEM. I never said offer ALL courses for 2 years.

Re tuition fees, maybe not, but it would save students a years worth of rent and living costs. But I'd wonder why the fees would be the same if courses were reduced to just 2 years instead of 3. I wasn't meaning doing the same number of modules over a shorter time, I was looking at the alternative of concentrating on relevant/fewer modules rather than the ancillary ones and the "options" that have nothing to do with the core subject.

it’s an apprenticeship bureaucracy issue” - do you mean regulatory busy-bodying?

In part yes. There are far more hoops you have to jump though to deliver a degree apprenticeship compared to a standard degree. It requires more staff and there are very strict rules around it being 'standalone' delivery and the number of tutorials between you, the apprentice and their employer.

It means that even though I am teaching they same content to my degree students I can't teach the apprentices at the same time. In some cases I'm delivering identical models twice when i could very effectively teach them together. I also need to factor in at least 5x more tutorial time.

They are not cost effective for universities which is one of the reasons some can be reluctant to run them - they lose money in some cases.

Just to be clear - I didn’t mean we only did medical research. I suggested this should be the focus on certain areas of moral studies. I accept we need academic research but not all unis fo a lot of it. What we do should not be self serving for the unis.

Most large overblown organisations need trimming. Students are walking away and unis do need to change. A second tier of 2 year degrees isn’t it. A 2 year HND might be!

I wasn't meaning doing the same number of modules over a shorter time, I was looking at the alternative of concentrating on relevant/fewer modules rather than the ancillary ones and the "options" that have nothing to do with the core subject.

Fewer modules means a qualification which isn't degree level.
We don't teach modules for the sake of it! Qualifications need to meet a certain number of credits. This is standard across the sector.

But I'd wonder why the fees would be the same if courses were reduced to just 2 years instead of 3

Because to maintain the same standard, the courses would need the same amount of tuition and assessment. It would just be compressed into two years instead of one. Yes, there might be some savings on infrastructure costs, but they would probably be offset by the need to employ more staff to deliver the compressed course.

I wasn't meaning doing the same number of modules over a shorter time, I was looking at the alternative of concentrating on relevant/fewer modules rather than the ancillary ones and the "options" that have nothing to do with the core subject

You can do that now. We will give you a diploma, not a degree.

Courses are designed so that all options contribute to core subject. They exist because students may have an interest in studying a particular area covered by the degree in more detail.

Courses are designed so that all options contribute to core subject. They exist because students may have an interest in studying a particular area covered by the degree in more detail.

And to add, they still contribute the the overall credits. They aren't optional as in they don't matter, It's just giving student choice.
I offer two optional modules which offer my students the chance to specialise in a particular area of our subject. These are related to which part of the sector they plan to work once they completed the course.

Most students do not go to a uni for a diploma! This is where keeping colleges of HE as they were made sense. They were launching pads for degrees but diplomas suit many perfectly.

Buckingham has always offered 2 year degrees. No longer holidays. Look where it is in most league tables. Hardly a ringing endorsement and its fees are the same as 3 years elsewhere. They might argue teaching time is the same. So it’s not much different just rushed with no time for internships or travel. So not highly regarded by anyone much.

I agree about Diploma and Certificate/HND/HNC courses tizer (first time for everything!). Reinvigorating an appetite for these quals would be hugely beneficial to a number of stakeholders.

Another bugbear of mine regarding degree apprenticeships (and I have many bugbears) is that they are not designed with sequential study options. A level 4 apprenticeship should be designed so that if a level 5 or degree apprenticeship in the same area exists, the level 4 should enable the apprentice to go straight into the level 5 without having to do all the L4 components again. Currently there is no requirement for this.

To add - Tony Blair's infamous '50%' was actually referring to level 4 and 5 qualifications as well as degrees. He never meant 50% to get degrees.

Was dumped into the beginners stage 1 word processing with mostly SEN adults and disabled and their carers.

Lovely bit of dismissive ableism all-round there @justasking111

No one is SEN. There are adults or children with SEN.

Having SEN and/or a disability is not synonymous with having an intellectual disability or learning disability. You using it as shorthand to demonstrate that those other students in your class were intellectually inferior to you is offensive and perpetuating a stereotype that is discriminatory and harmful.

I saw your post when I was first posted hours ago and hoped that one of the esteemed academics on here would come along and educate you, or someone would report your post, but that hasn’t happened. So as ‘a SEN adult’ (with a postgraduate level of education and a professional postgrad qualification) I’m pulling you up on it. Not reporting your post though, I think it’s a good for others to see how people think it’s appropriate to talk about those with SEN and/or disabilities in such a disrespectful way.

I don’t think we need these continuing lectures from those who know more and like to tell the rest of us off. Just accept the poster felt aggrieved! We don’t all get terminology correct but we don’t mean harm.

@titch Yay!! Hang out the bunting! I agree with the Blair analysis too. We do have a nearly 50% degree educated workforce but we have forgotten about diplomas. They don’t need to be uni taught but could be. I agree about the non streamlining of apprenticeships too. My other issue is that some of the Unis used are not first class but the apprentices are. There seems to be a mismatch. When I did day release back in the dark ages, my employer accepted the course I was doing. It was seen as good prep for a career. We now seem to have over complicated everything.

I don’t think we need these continuing lectures from those who know more and like to tell the rest of us off.

Nobody is telling you off or lecturing you. We're simply explaining the reality of working at a university. It's very frustrating when people who don't work in the sector, and never have, tell us how to do our job better.

I'm sure you'd feel the same if people were discussing your profession.

My other issue is that some of the Unis used are not first class but the apprentices are. There seems to be a mismatch. When I did day release back in the dark ages, my employer accepted the course I was doing. It was seen as good prep for a career. We now seem to have over complicated everything.

How are you defining 'first class'? What do you mean by mismatch?
My ex-poly, mid league table university offers apprenticeships and we recently achieved outstanding from ofsted.

I agree with the over complication. But that's not the fault of universities!

@ElaineMBenes - I have 4 DC, we are middle class. 20 odd years ago, 2 out of 4 of my DC may have studied something like Music or Modern Languages/English. Now there is absolutely no way I am encouraging that due to the uncertainty in the job market. If they want to really do it, of course I won’t stop them.
Due to the debt and further ahead, uncertainty in jobs, there is a massive scramble for tech and STEM etc and these are both more expensive for unis to provide and more competitive for the DC. At DCs grammar, all the kids are talking about the apprenticeships. That is the current trend and what they would seem to like the idea of.
To pretend they are not scared of the debt and an extra 9% tax is disingenuous. These are largely lower middle class families, lots of migrants too.

There is also all this political talk from different parts that is anti private school and increasingly, also anti grammar school, which adds to the anxiety parents and kids are feeling. The whole country has gone negative. It is such a shame! Our unis are fantastic, so are our young people across the board. Whatever solution we find for them, it has to have an employment angle to it somehow. I am not saying that is the unis jobs to fix at all, but we absolutely need a closer match somehow between the private sector jobs market and universities.

The whole country has gone negative. It is such a shame!

I agree with this. There is an 'anti - expert' narrative too which is harmful.

Our unis are fantastic, so are our young people across the board. Whatever solution we find for them, it has to have an employment angle to it somehow. I am not saying that is the unis jobs to fix at all, but we absolutely need a closer match somehow between the private sector jobs market and universities.

A couple of things here, the UK graduate job market doesn't need there to be a close match between all degree subjects and the job market (the whole job market, not just the private sector). Currently around 80% of graduate job don't specify a particular degree subject. They're just looking for graduates who have developed skills that will be valued in the workplace.
What you do need are universities who are focussed on employability across the board. That doesn't mean vocational courses that lead directly to a specific job. It means preparing all graduates to be employable in a constantly changing labour market.

Some universities are better than others at this! Young people should not be put off studying subjects such as history, music or English. Just choose your university wisely and look closely at the graduate outcome data and employability offer as well as the quality of teaching.

@ElaineMBenes I didn’t mean you. However it’s not healthy to have experts examining their own navels either.

Yes, we need humanities grads. My DD studied MFLs. However what we don’t need is the uni of blog offering la myriad of such courses. They really aren’t the same as the top 30 unis and the former polys did not offer such subjects. We need a redirection regarding which subjects are offered where and rationalizing in some areas to closer align to skillls needed. That’s not every uni or every course and some desperately need to be diplomas. As they would have been in the past. Graduate prospects on se courses in some areas are poor. We have to accept some subjects and grads are not achieving very much. A more targeted approach with varying, obvious, levels, will
help and cost us all less.

Regardjng apprenticeships - a DC who could get to Bristol or Sheffield to do a competitive MEng should not be doing a BEng at the local uni that was a college of HE or similar. So there’s an obvious mismatch in quality of degree and ability.

Graduate prospects on se courses in some areas are poor. We have to accept some subjects and grads are not achieving very much.

I agree. This can be a tricky battle in a university. On one hand a VC is keen to attract students so will offer courses that get bums on seats yet the careers service would have advised against that particular course (or numbers) due to challenges in the labour market.
My husband is a director of a university careers service and it is a constant source of frustration when they go against his advice and recruit hundreds of psychology students as ultimately that will impact the Graduate Outcome data, which he is directly responsible for! Yet some VCs are (understandably I guess) driven by income.

Regardjng apprenticeships - a DC who could get to Bristol or Sheffield to do a competitive MEng should not be doing a BEng at the local uni that was a college of HE or similar. So there’s an obvious mismatch in quality of degree and ability.

This is a difficult problem to solve as some students just won't apply for higher ranked /elite universities.
Work on this needs to start when they are young as it's linked to aspirations as well as cultural and social capital. This sort of thing was the focus of my PhD so I'm very passionate about it!

One of my sons had the following experience this week:

• Dirty hall room, damaged kitchen, no staff on hand at move in, lack of the facilities advertised, the place feels a dump and unloved, despite being students homes there are more staff car parking places than student bike racks....
• First two lectures were 'mandatory'. Yet one the tutor did not turn up to one and the second was an online video to 'introduce' the course, but made a few years ago before the course changed, and so he found himself in a room with 19 of the 49 on his course - and one staff member who was not the course tutor, or the head of the course/dept.
• The time table has changed already, after he was sent it last Friday.
• Of three optional modules this year, two clash. So he will permanently watch one on video afterwards.
• One of last years students from his course he bumped into at a sports club. Apparently the uni have such low expectations of how many turn up in person that they actively book rooms to small and don't encourage attendance - so less that 50% attending is 'normal' and most fudge it at the test. He was advised to just get a job a few days a week.

This is one of Scotland's 'leading' universities and supposedly the 'best' place for his subject. A university who are taking £9.5k tuition from government and @£7k in halls costs from him and 48 others...

The words 'piss up in a brewery' and 'ponzi scheme' springs to mind.

The other thing worth mentioning is the level of connectedness between the young these days via social media. Let’s say the Year 11s in one year at one school in Zone 4 London. They seem to know via social media a ton of kids from all the other schools in the local area, out to the grammars in Kent and Bexley and beyond, and they know kids in older years who have gone to uni via siblings. And there is a ton of gossip between all of them as to what uni to go to, what to study etc. As a parent, it is quite difficult to figure out if they are feeding each other misinformation or if they actually know what is going on!

@ElaineMBenes I didn’t mean you. However it’s not healthy to have experts examining their own navels either.

Yes, it was clear @TizerorFizz that you meant me, although I can understand Elaine’s confusion because you referred to “continuing lectures” when I haven’t done that.

I don’t think we need these continuing lectures from those who know more and like to tell the rest of us off. Just accept the poster felt aggrieved! We don’t all get terminology correct but we don’t mean harm.

You have missed - deliberately or otherwise - that the reason “I know more” about SEN and disability is because I am an adult with a disability and a condition that’s regarded as SEN. I can assure you, I absolutely do not enjoy “telling anyone off” when they’re ableist, I wish more than anything I didn’t have to. The fact you think the poster meant well shows you don’t understand the subtext & complete ignorance of their post, and clearly MNHQ agreed it was offensive and breaches talk guidelines as that post is deleted.

Would you chastise a black Mumsnetter for picking someone up on a racist comment and minimised the inappropriateness? Actually, I fear you might.

You have a nerve talking about people liking to lecture others about things they know more about. Very hypocritical.

I’ve been on the Further & Higher Ed boards for the past 6 or more years and throughout that time you’ve repeatedly - under a succession of obvious name changes - come into year or subject specific HE threads and asked why someone’s DC was bothering to do X degree at Y university as it was essentially worthless. It’s fucking rude. You did it fairly recently to the OP on a thread I was on for those of us whose DC are about to study a certain subject at university, when the places were already confirmed. I didn’t pick you up on it but will in future. I’ve seen others do so in the past.

Elaine referred to your profession. It seems to be Professional Education Boards Mumsnetter ™️. You’re retired, you never worked in HE and your DC left university over 10 years ago so your first or rather second-hand knowledge isn’t recent. Of course you have a right to post and I personally agree with some of your opinions, but you don’t have the right or authority to publicly criticise posters for pointing out ableism or for their DC choosing the ‘wrong’ course at a ‘pointless’ university.

Please complain to the university.
I suspect that some of this is due to the absolutely catastrophic staff cuts and senior management need to know the impact that this is having on students.