Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

The obvious answer is more Central Government funding directed at targeted research that benefits society as a whole (and is properly consulted on), whilst student fees stay static and are aimed at the teaching element alone.

Static? As in what they are now?

They don’t currently cover teaching costs and that will only get worse with inflation.

Research is already externally funded anyway. How would that help universities?

In terms of fees, they don't currently cover the cost of running a course. How do we solve that?

Tuition fees need to stay under 10k a year.

So, who makes up the shortfall?

You will all most likely be told to stop working from home and be more productive and organised. Like the rest of us. Then I suspect they will fudge Plan 5 somehow.
However, I highly doubt they will go against the optics of raising tuition fees above 10k.

"be more productive"....jeez. you don't know any academics.

You will all most likely be told to stop working from home and be more productive and organised. Like the rest of us.

More productive!!! Bloody hell! What do you think academics do? My workload is insane and it is not unusual for me to work 50+ hours a week. That's isn't because I'm not organised or productive. You can't get away with being lazy or not pulling your weight anymore. As for working from home, hybrid working is common across many sectors and works well for many. I do some lot of teaching online which I will do at home so I don't disturb the colleague I share an office with. However, I am generally on campus 3-4 days week which is normal amongst my colleagues.
And before you moan about me teaching online it's a specific distance learning course, not be me lazy and not teaching in person. I do that as well.

What tasks do you think academics do when they do work at home?

How can £9k per year not cover the teaching costs? A few lectures per week given in bulk to dozens if not hundreds of pupils. If they're lucky, a "paid" person giving tutorials or seminars for a few hours per week (or if unlucky, they're done by phd students instead). They don't even give out "paper" copies of lecture notes anymore. OK, they have to buy library books or online versions for the library. Pay utilities etc for rooms and lecture theatres. But I fail to see how a couple of hundred students on each course all paying £9k can't fund the lecturers and admin wages plus a contribution towards the utilities and rent etc of the buildings. Where does the money go?

I could almost pay for private tuition for a few hours per week to be "taught" the same as a Uni course.

In fact, professional courses (law, accountancy, actuarial etc) cost £500 to £1000 per module/subject to include printed course materials (reference book, practice papers, past exam papers, revision materials etc), plus online lectures, plus marking practice questions and mock exams, plus feedback etc. For actuaries, I think it's 13 exams, so total cost of "professional" training/tuition remotely would be a max of about £13,000. Compared with £27k for an actuarial degree!

Especially now that so much of the "uni experience" is online rather than face to face and actually having a 1-2-1 with a lecturer seems as rare as hen's teeth.

@ElaineMBenes @Battlerope - please do not make me the bad guy. I was simply expressing what I reckon this “back to work” Cabinet is going to tell you. Rightly or wrongly.

Unis could make more effort to look elsewhere to make money. It's insane that all the rooms/lecture theatres are empty and unused most of the time, i.e. weekends, evenings, Summer holidays, etc. (Yes, I know some do things but it's mostly trivial compared with the scale of their resources). I go walking and cycling around our local Uni campus and despair at it being basically deserted at weekends and during the holiday periods.

There's a thriving private sector in professional training, CPD. CPE, etc. Why aren't Unis in that market? I used to go to our local football stadium for evening accountancy CPD courses given by accountants/tax consultants who were doing lecturing on the side. Why can't Unis offer that kind of thing using their lecture theatres and their accounting/tax lecturers?? Of if staff aren't available, at least rent out their lecture theatres and other facilities to the private providers.

Same with our training for new staff. Our nearest Uni does nothing at all that isn't a degree. Why aren't they providing basic courses for book-keeping, basic tax returns, basic management accounting etc. As it is, we have to pay private providers for either online/remote courses (not ideal) or for firms who organise group training using travelling "teachers" by renting function rooms in local hotels, etc.

When I first started 40 years, my first port of call was contacting our local Uni to see if they were doing any part time courses for trainee accountants. A big fat no! I ended up having to travel 100 miles to a college who were doing it! Not ideal when you work full time all day and then have to travel 100 miles for evening classes 3 days per week! Not lack of demand either, the classes were absolutely full to capacity, so there was/is demand.

Unis need to broaden their outlook away from just degrees and make more use of their resources to muscle in on the lucrative private sector training market.

Then don't write comments that make us out to be lazy and workshy!!

We are all 'back to work' so what on earth are you talking about?

@ElaineMBenes - you inferred wrongly from my comment, which I may have expressed badly (in a rush).
I was simply stating that the general message from Cabinet to all is get back to work/be more productive. There is a black hole, work harder so we get more tax.
And the message has definitely not been that they are going to increase public borrowing to cover higher tuition fees.
Whilst I completely value our uni sector and its importance, I just do not think they are going to raise tuition fees. Of course, I might be wrong.
Plan 5 is a disgrace for students. Students are stressed about debt. Students are being put off going to university now.

The politicians job is to balance the needs of students and the needs of unis. Some people in the private sector have given some helpful tips on how unis can start thinking more “commercially” to raise funds.

@taxguru some universities do rent out their space BUT lots of us teach all year round now (including Saturdays) so the space isn't always available as regularly as people want. Plus, the summer is often when building work, repairs and upgrades happen. However, more can be done to use the space in quieter times. Although, in my experience, the people who often want to use the space expect to use if for free!

Some departments do offer CPD to businesses but there are staffing implications. If staff have full timetables where do they find the time to develop and deliver CPD? I do it, but that's because I've found a way of using it as entry onto my Masters but it is very time consuming and takes me away form my primary function of supporting my current students.

Same with our training for new staff. Our nearest Uni does nothing at all that isn't a degree. Why aren't they providing basic courses for book-keeping, basic tax returns, basic management accounting etc. As it is, we have to pay private providers for either online/remote courses (not ideal) or for firms who organise group training using travelling "teachers" by renting function rooms in local hotels, etc.

Well yeah, why would a university do this? We can't ( and shouldn't) be all things to all people. You can't criticise a university for not offering basic qualifications.

I was simply stating that the general message from Cabinet to all is get back to work/be more productive. There is a black hole, work harder so we get more tax.

Every academic I know is on the verge of burnout with an even harder academic year on the horizon. I'm confident we all work hard enough and were never away from work.

The politicians job is to balance the needs of students and the needs of unis. Some people in the private sector have given some helpful tips on how unis can start thinking more “commercially” to raise funds

Universities aren’t public sector. They have been thinking commercially for many, many years.

@Battlerope - and you are not in one bit worried about competition from places like BPP Law Schools springing up more and more?

Personally, no.

See I don’t understand why you wouldn’t be worried, because where I am sitting a lot of young people want to go somewhere that directly leads to a good job and if degree apprenticeships take off more and more and private providers actually do what big employers demand and at the same or better price than unis offer, then surely there is potential for immense competition?

Who do you think delivers the teaching on a degree apprenticeship?

I would love there to be more of them but they are incredibly challenging to set up from an employer and university perspective. That needs to change.

I teach on a degree apprenticeship scheme. At a RG university in the top ten UK rankings.

As ElaineMBenes said above, who do you think delivers degree apprenticeship programmes?

@ElaineMBenes - but that is the point I am trying to make. Employers may team up with private providers that don’t find it that difficult to set up, if they are principally set up for that purpose. So Mondays x employers apprentices, Tuesdays y, Wednesdays z etc

I agree. I think some Uni staff on here are taking things too personally. It's the "Unis" that need to change, not necessarily the staff. But, of course, the staff need to be flexible to adapt to new ways of working rather than insisting on doing things the "old" ways. Unis generally need to embrace degree apprenticeships to compete with all the private providers. They also need to embrace professional training. It's almost inevitable that the number of students doing degrees will start/continue to decrease, so Unis need to adapt to fill the gap. That's 99% down to Uni management to sort out!

Alongside degree apprenticeships and professional training, I'd also be looking at reducing the length of some degrees to just 2 years as an option, and cheaper fees for 100% online courses to give an alternative to the Open University.

I think the main thing to recognise is that the "old model" is no longer sustainable now we have so many youngsters going to Uni and we have a "new world" of different skills being needed in the workforce.

but that is the point I am trying to make. Employers may team up with private providers that don’t find it that difficult to set up, if they are principally set up for that purpose. So Mondays x employers apprentices, Tuesdays y, Wednesdays z etc

Private providers have same issues. It's a not a university or employer issue, it's an apprenticeship bureaucracy issue. For it to be a degree apprenticeship the provider needs degree awarding powers and will be subject to the same checks and balances as a university.