Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

If announced presumably part of the autumn statement and to apply for September 2025 intake. Not suggesting it would be announced next week and start next month. Can 100% guarantee that won’t be happening.

@DullFanFiction Surely Sept 24 is out. Sept 25 makes more sense. I think a modest rise is pointless but students are then being made to pay more for chaperoning degrees to subsidise other, more expensive courses and fill the void left by fewer international students.

I have a feeling the immigration haters don’t have dc going to uni.

students are then being made to pay more for chaperoning degrees to subsidise other, more expensive courses

Thats has always been the case though.
The expensive courses bring stuff like engineering that are seeing as ‘good fir value courses’ whereas the courses subsidising them are often the ones ‘worth nothing’ like English (that has few contact hours etc…).

I have a feeling the immigration haters don’t have dc going to uni

I don’t see the connection. Most foreign students go back to their home country after they complete their course.

Putting the fees up by a significant amount would likely reduce the number of students attending university. I do not see a problem with the university sector contracting.

That’s because university isn’t just about teaching students to get a degree or a master so they can go and work.
Universities are also about research (and that’s mainly what is used to evaluate them internationally).

Contract the Uni sector, you reduce research and all the positive for the economy coming from that.

@focacciamuffin Yes. Many do. Try telling the haters that! They think whole families are here “taking our jobs” and getting benefits. You must have heard this. More Chinese students went home than others. The visas have now diverted the others to EU as families are not coming. Hence courses in cleaning and unis with even bigger financial woes.

They don't understand that though, or that international students spend ££££ in the UK, go back with warm fuzzy feelings about the UK, soft power and all that. All immigrant haters see is 'foreigner with brown skin who overstay'.

Nah. When fees went up threefold in 2012 entrant numbers were at their pre-2012 level a year later.

It does not follow that contracting teaching leads to a contraction of research. Research is funded separately and you do not need to teach undergraduates in order to carry out research. I worked in a university department that was highly rated for research, our posts were all externally funded and as a department we provided a net income to the university. We also did not have any undergraduate students.

£9000 ish was manageable because of the grad tax system. You pay back according to what you earn. Not what you borrow. Many years as a SAHM and you don’t pay back as much and part time working really helps. £27,000 would cause issues! Not that this is needed but we cannot assume unis can get more money by putting up fees because it’s highly likely some DC will be out off. They cannot divert into degree apprenticeships because so few are available. It should lead to a recalibration of the sector.

Do all universities do research? I vaguely remember thinking most ex poly's did not do research ( could be a positive if teaching is a priority). Maybe universities need to work together more if they need to save money, so instead of 2 unis doing the same course in the same place, they could collaborate? Maybe some places should look at doing different things, like pure degree apprenticeships or more part time courses or something?

Research is funded separately and you do not need to teach undergraduates in order to carry out research. I worked in a university department that was highly rated for research, our posts were all externally funded and as a department we provided a net income to the university. We also did not have any undergraduate students.

You're aware of the UK's dual-funding system for research? RC bids (which don't have full cost recovery I might add) plus a flat rate of Gov funding - again which doesn't cover most research active academic costs. Relatively few academic are solely funded through RCs - and almost no one that is would be on a permanent contract Most have their salaries effectively subsidised by teaching income. With the expectation they'll bid for RC etc.

I vaguely remember thinking most ex poly's did not do research ( could be a positive if teaching is a priority).
I work at an ex-poly and we are expected to do research AND teach. It's almost impossible to progress your career if you aren't research active.

Maybe some places should look at doing different things, like pure degree apprenticeships or more part time courses or something?

Degree apprenticeships are employer driven and extremely bureaucratic. They can also be more expensive to run than a standard degree.
Part time undergraduate courses aren't very popular with students. There isn't really a market for them.

I vaguely remember thinking most ex poly's did not do research ( could be a positive if teaching is a priority).

I work at an ex-poly and we are expected to do research AND teach. It's almost impossible to progress your career if you aren't research active.

Maybe some places should look at doing different things, like pure degree apprenticeships or more part time courses or something?

Degree apprenticeships are employer driven and extremely bureaucratic. They can also be more expensive to run than a standard degree.
Part time undergraduate courses aren't very popular with students. There isn't really a market for them.

Thanks. That's interesting. Do you think that the only way to save Universities is to raise funds or do you think some will need to close?

Thanks. That's interesting. Do you think that the only way to save Universities is to raise funds or do you think some will need to close?

It's not quite that simple.
Fees do need to increase as it's not sustainable for any university to continue to charge much less than it costs to run them.
The geo-political landscape is complicated and not helping UK universities to recruit international students.
I'd love to see more degree apprenticeships but like I said, they're difficult to set up and they're costly to run so I'd like that to be addressed.

I'd love to see more degree apprenticeships but like I said, they're difficult to set up and they're costly to run so I'd like that to be addressed.

The fees that can be charged are often less than the standard UG fee as well, plus you have to wait till they graduate till you get the final 20% of the total fees!

The fees that can be charged are often less than the standard UG fee as well, plus you have to wait till they graduate till you get the final 20% of the total fees!

It's so frustrating. My subject is ideal for an apprenticeship but the staffing levels required make it financially difficult... especially when we've just made a significant number of staff redundant 😞

Heavens above - not only do ex polys do research, some of them even beat RG in the rankings.

Absolutely agree
Lecturers are not teachers. They are there to impart knowledge not teach students
Some parents fail to understand this.
Every university will have fantastic lecturers and terrible lecturers, it really is pot luck tbh.
It is up to the student ( who are adults ) to do their own research . Lecturers are not there to hold little Johnny’s hand.

My dd ( economics student) found her own spring breaks placements and is currently doing an internship in an investment bank.
She did the leg work and as a result found many untapped opportunities .
The careers department simply guide you but the student is supposed to go out and look for the opportunities

Fair enough about research for science, archaeology, medicines and engineering degrees, but is there really any viable/meaningful research based on other degrees like media studies, languages, humanities, etc? I'm not saying they're worthless as I'm sure they're not, but my point is about what, exactly, kinds of research etc is worthwhile in those latter subjects, compared with the kind of research that may lead to breakthroughs in disease control or renewable energies in Engineering and medical departments.

I seem to remember the whole argument about raising fees to £9k about a decade ago was that Unis would charge different fees based on the type of course (higher charges for more expensive courses such as engineering and science), and according to status/standing of Uni, i.e. higher charges for Oxford compared with "BogStandardTown ex Poly". That differential never happened, they all just charged the full amount regardless.

Is that attitude that only engineering or science research is valuable not philistine and ignorant? So we have no desire to know about human origins or how language arose or why Fascism happened or what world made Greek art possible or how ideology works or what explains political populism or what ancient scrolls mean or how museums can communicate or what are the implications of colonialism or what are the ethical aspects of organ donation or or or or...
What a world!

Fair enough about research for science, archaeology, medicines and engineering degrees, but is there really any viable/meaningful research based on other degrees like media studies, languages, humanities, etc?

So ignorant and narrow minded.

I would argue that research related to media studies is vitally important in the current climate. We're currently experiencing civil unrest which has been, in part, created and fuelled by the media and social media in particular.
This also links to a number of humanities subjects such as sociology and psychology.

• humanities subjects such as cultural studies and social sciences such as sociology and psychology

(Part of my post got deleted)