Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

My kids are at university now. Lots of drinking still going on (Bristol, Oxbridge and Edinburgh!).

The Otley Run is still going strong in Leeds!!

My kid at Bristol and her friends have been shocked by the quality of teaching and seminars.

they say their lecturers seem bored, many don’t speak clear English, and they clearly see teaching as a chore. Apart from her friends doing professions like medicine or Law, it’s been a disappointing experience and they really regret their choice. These are all bright and motivated kids. There has been no career/internship advice at all so they are doing their own thing. Her friends’ parents have helped find them summer internships via their City contacts. We have no contacts so my kid found her own thing. The uni didn't help at all.

By contrast my child at Oxbridge is getting incredible ‘value’ for money. Supervisons, lab time etc. Lecturers, supervisors who actually know him. The contrast is astonishing.

Probably not related to the OP anyway.

@Batcrazily Your expectations are way too high. My DD went to Bristol some years ago now and the uni doesn’t find students internships. Never did. You have to be motivated and apply. DD applied for loads. As did her friends. It’s what motivated students do and she knew no one in her chosen career, Nor did we. This notion that parents sort you out just doesn’t happen when there’s an application process.

DD worked on her own. Lecturers were a mixed bag but they are nearly everywhere. There’s loads of careers fairs! No idea why your DC does not go. Of course they don’t work like Oxford so it’s daft to compare but motivated dc do get on and Oxford parents would also help if they could! Most don’t because it’s not possible.

Where did i say my child didn’t go? They did go to the careers fair and it was underwhelming. She found her own internship too.

The whole uni experience has been underwhelming from an academic perspective. She was hoping for a more stimulating atmosphere in seminars etc. She isn’t alone and her friends have been disappointed too. They still work hard and will no doubt do ok in the end. Because they will make it happen. The kid at Edinburgh had a much better experience too with interested and stimulating lecturers.

It is fine for them to express this. Not all uni experiences are the same. And not all poor experiences are the fault of the students.

@Batcrazily

The whole uni experience has been underwhelming from an academic perspective. She was hoping for a more stimulating atmosphere in seminars etc. She isn’t alone and her friends have been disappointed too. They still work hard and will no doubt do ok in the end. Because they will make it happen.

My son says the same. He's convinced none of his lecturers knew who he was or would recognise him by name. The only time he saw any of them was in large lectures. All his tutorials and seminars were taken by random PHD students, hardly ever the same ones twice! None of his lecturers would have had a clue if he was struggling mentally as he never met them outside lectures. All they knew was whether he was attending (via online attendance "registers") and what work he was handing in/completing online. I suppose they'd have reached out to him in some way if he was producing crap work or not handing stuff in.

Similar with the Uni career's advice. He thought it was pretty good overall, but there was nothing "personal" about it. Quite a lot of pre-recorded online sessions about job application processes, particularly online aptitude tests etc which he thought were good, and a couple of "in person" group interview practice sessions, the type of thing where they get a group of 20-30 students, who have to introduce themselves to eachother, and then build a bridge out of paper cups and rulers, or similar, as a kind of "mock" group interview as done by some employers. But again, nothing "one to one" as such so the careers people wouldn't have noticed any MH issues either, again, other than simply not attending either the in person or the online sessions.

I know my son did an awful lot of "self tuition" to make up for gaps in the lectures and lecture notes and where the lecture notes contained errors etc. I think most of his contact with lecturers was where they had wrongly assumed that particular topics had been covered in other modules, so he had to contact them to tell them he'd not done it and ask for lecture note extracts from the other modules so he could "self study" the bits that he'd not covered. (Which happened far too often sadly!).

When teaching time is around 8 hours or less you are expected to do 32-40 hours. Of course you do extra hours. It’s called research and learning to get the work done. Dd found the career fairs very good with lots of top employers there. I just think this is sour grapes. Nothing compares with Oxford. Must be great to be able to know the lecturers are wrong.

So weird that parents seem to see the entire job of academics as being to teach their kid. They are researchers who teach and share their expertise, not school teachers. Yes, you are supposed to teach yourself and co-ordinate your own work, especially in the arts and humanities. The course provides guidance not spoon-feeding. It's not a lecturer's job, or the university's, to provide career or internship opportunities for students.

UHI offers LOADs of degrees and has lots of researchers, why on earth shouldn't it be a university? It caters for a huge geographic area too. Weird take.

Similar with the Uni career's advice. He thought it was pretty good overall, but there was nothing "personal" about it. Quite a lot of pre-recorded online sessions about job application processes, particularly online aptitude tests etc which he thought were good, and a couple of "in person" group interview practice sessions, the type of thing where they get a group of 20-30 students, who have to introduce themselves to eachother, and then build a bridge out of paper cups and rulers, or similar, as a kind of "mock" group interview as done by some employers. But again, nothing "one to one" as such so the careers people wouldn't have noticed any MH issues either, again, other than simply not attending either the in person or the online sessions.

I don't know a single university that doesn't offer 1:1 careers guidance.....but students need to take the initiative and book it!! It won't happen automatically.

@boys3 I was watching this thread when it began but it dropped off my radar - just posting as I recognise your username - did you use to post lots of helpful data on the Covid threads back in the day? <waves hello>

PMSL.

DS1 is on track for a first but has spent most of his time at university drinking!

There are more young people capable of benefiting from an Oxbridge style education than places. It’s a shame. Also worth remembering that not everyone has a great experience at Oxbridge. A lot seems to depend on the chemistry between the professor and the student. It won’t always be a good fit.

I think a lot of the uni experience has to do with other students as much as professors and teaching assistants. If your peers aren’t curious, motivated and wanting to discuss the topics, it will fall a little flat.

Most disability support is funded centrally by Student Finance, not the unis themselves (although they make access arrangements for exams etc and will have student support staff, counsellors etc). While it is true that some don’t cope with the experience, many can with the right support, mine is thriving at a small uni despite having been in special school since y7 with an EHCP, if you’d have asked me 5 years ago I’d have said no way would that happen. Sometimes you do just have to put whatever support you can in place and let them go. There are also those with no previous history of SENs, mental health problems etc who hit problems at uni (perhaps through previously undiagnosed SENs, problems with other students, bereavements or other trauma) - shouldn’t they be supported to to study either?

Lots of data, yes. Whether it was helpful or not is a whole other question.😀

People get weirdly defensive about stuff. I am secure enough to cope if someone criticises my kids’ schools, universities, my profession etc. It’s fine.

My kid at Edinburgh had a great experience. Plenty of other people have been disappointed recently by the uni experience at Bristol. I have seen it on MN.

I can’t be bothered to discuss with someone who gets defensive and can’t cope with a different viewpoint about their child’s university. It’s tedious and embarrassing.

I could have written your first para word for word!

My daughter was proactive and arranged to meet with a mentor at the uni. Who just told her she is doing everything right and to keep on going. V uninspiring. Anyway she has some idea of what she wants to do herself and is making it happen and running stuff by us (happy to do so as parents!). She is trying to book a slot with a careers advisor but the website didn’t work so she has emailed them. Not sure what more she can do!

She was unwell during the Jan exams and tried to contact her personal tutor and was told that there wasn’t such a system! Thank goodness she is fairly robust. I really don’t know how more fragile students who ever support would cope.

People on MN always have a go at Bristol. It’s still very popular though. As pp said above, it’s not a hand holding uni. It suits self starters. I’ve no idea why you think dc there are found internships by parents. DC have to apply like the Oxbridge ones do. If you are comparing careers fairs, how does dc know they are not good. What comparison? You say Edinburgh is great. Same subject? It’s just individual lecturers and as PP says, researchers. Just because your DD doesn’t like it, it doesn’t follow others don’t. You don’t expect to like every lecturer but dissing your fellow students is a bit ? It sounds like he didn’t get Oxford snd hasn’t got over it. Has he told the lecturers he corrects their work?

It's not a lecturer's job, or the university's, to provide career or internship opportunities for students

Are you quite sure about that? Not the lecturer of course but the institution.

Bristol has an entire section devoted to alleged careers advice and support.

It says ‘Your Careers Service is here to help you get to where you want to be when you graduate’.

They have a section on internships too ;-)

Bristol is not the only uni to say they offer advice!

Nah. Can’t be bothered to debate with someone so blinkered. Sorry. She didn’t apply to Oxford. Projecting maybe?!

She is trying to book a slot with a careers advisor but the website didn’t work so she has emailed them. Not sure what more she can do!

Physically go to the careers service.....speak to people in person??

It's not a lecturer's job, or the university's, to provide career or internship opportunities for students.

Actually it is. Every university has a careers service and employer engagement teams.
Academics are responsible for ensuring that the content of their course and modules are designed with employability in mind and courses with poor Graduate Outcomes are at risk of being closed.

I think they all pay lip service to having great careers advice, internships, years in industry etc but that the reality is somewhat different @Batcrazily . Not in a position to opine on Bristol specifically as don't know anyone who went there in the last 10 years, but certainly that was the experience of both my two educated in the UK (doing completely different subjects at opposite ends of the country) and by all accounts most of their friends.

One of my DCs loved doing this all for themselves, the other hated it. Horses for courses.

I'm not personally convinced how much teenage under-graduates benefit from the research being particularly great at the university they attend. Possibly in their last year, definitely when doing a Masters, but maybe initially it is better to have someone who is a really good lecturer and likes being engaged with the student body rather than wanting to progress their own research… Just a point of view.

As a lecturer all of my 3rd year students have a mini 1-1 mock interview. I get people in from industry links to help and we have a few rooms running concurrently and bang through the whole cohort. This is in the afternoon following a group morning session on job applications and interview techniques.

the people from industry also chat to the cohort in the morning about new graduate opportunities and expectations.

I think they all pay lip service to having great careers advice, internships, years in industry etc but that the reality is somewhat different

I disagree.
The vast majority of universities really invest in their careers provision. It's one of the few areas that has grown in recent years and has been hit less hard by recent cuts.

The issue is often getting academic 'buy in' as they don't see it as their job or don't value it as much as they should.
Also, people have a particular perception of career guidance which is often negative and based on their own poor experience at school or they misunderstand what career guidance actually is! I have heard of students not engaging with their career service as they thought it was only there for people who knew exactly what they wanted to do!! When it's there for students at all stages of their career journey.
it also requires quite a lot of proactivity on the students behalf too which can see students being disappointed as they thought the careers consultant was going to do it all for them