Cambridge. Things we don't know we don't know.

[Sorenlorrenson]

My son is set on studying maths at Cambridge. We are working class and don't know anyone who went to Cambridge.
I have recently found out that Magdalene and Caius are not pronounced how they are spelt. There must be loads of stuff like this, stuff we don't know because we are poor and common.
If you know something you think we don't, please share.

It used to be ten terms for the MA, as long as you weren't dead or in jail. I forgot about it, and you had to pay for the certificate, contacted the College Secretary admitting my crapness, and she remembered me and sent it for free, bless her.

Nobody's born knowing how to pronounce things and English has some truly daft pronunciations, so don't feel bad about that.

May balls - I've heard that women are expected to wear a different dress to each that they go to - is this right? So that can get expensive but obviously that won't apply to OP's son.

Also - does attending a particular college entitled you to marry in its Church? So if you graduated from King's college could you get married in that glorious church?

Great topic, OP

the main thing to know IMO is STEP -Sixth Term Examination Paper referred to above. Taken at the same time as A Levels, incorporated into all (or almost all) Cambridge Maths offers. Imperial and several other places use it as one option but allow candidates to use results from other, easier, exams sat the previous autumn instead. Oxford don’t use it.

Cambridge write and mark the exam nationwide. They set the grade boundaries to control the size of their incoming class. Typically only about 50% make their offer.

I think some of this is down to a lack if preparation. These applicants are the best mathematicians in their schools. They can’t conceive that problems on A Level material (both Maths and FM) could be so difficult. They are caught short. But it is also true that STEP is very, very difficult.

Note - you can get a top grade without getting a top mark. It is scaled.

Practice is the best thing. Are you in England? Does DS know about the Advanced Maths Support Network? He is entitled to join. His school can help. There is also MumsNetter who works on STEP outreach at Cambridge. Her name is something like Pallandro, perhaps, and she is fantastic. Perhaps someone can help us get it right and we can put out a call on this thread.

Also if DS’s school is in a weaker socioeconomic area it might be paired with a Cambridge College for outreach purposes (obviously he can still apply anywhere). They may be able to provide STEP resources. The problem is, pupils at independent schools and in leafy suburbs have access to STEP tuition. That’s what he needs. It may seem early, but it isn’t if he is doing A levels.

DH attended one of the old colleges. He made some lifelong friends. Academically he made a slow start, not helped by having a personal tutor who would not be tolerated today. Anyway, he ended up with a Distinction at Part III (Cambridge version of MSc) and an invitation to do a funded PhD. He turned it down to go elsewhere and had a great career as a professor at major universities.

My perspective from being an Admissions tutor is that Oxbridge sometimes make mistakes. Even when they get it right, they turn down many applicants who could thrive and do them credit. Everyone who applies must do so with resilience. Cambridge Maths applicants above all. Best wishes to DS

@murasaki I believe it’s 6 years after matriculation at Cambridge now… unless you have been convicted of a crime… or divorced! 😮 I am assuming that outrageous caveat isn’t a university rule. I was told that by DD’s friend who is at a Catholic college so I very much hope that is just a college rule. Still pretty shocking though.

I just remembered in Oxford, a disco is called a "bop". So quaint. No idea if they have bops in Cambridge, but if they do they will be inferior to the Oxford bops.

So pretentious isn't it?
The Chumondley-Featheringstonehaughs are putting in an application for Caius.
A lot of these pronunciations seem to have come via people who are too posh to have chins.

Posh or just very very old?

The chip on your shoulder is showing....

Your son doesn’t need to know about pronunciations. Overseas students don’t know them either. There will be many students in the same boat. Kings is the obvious college to look at but don’t rule anything out.

It's a quote I came across.

Maybe both?
Some pronunciations are logical, but the examples I gave are not. Obviously each to their own.

It's not posh, it's because it's ancient. "Magdalene" and "Caius" represent how those words were normally pronounced at the time the colleges were founded. Same with Magdalen Oxford.

Thankyou all so much.
My son has just finished his GCSE s, so it's a long way off, hopefully he's as good at maths as he thinks he is, he's doing 4 A Levels, 2 of them maths.

The perfect time to start looking into Cambridge outreach and STEP prep.

Caius has loads of outreach for pupils themselves at a handle I can’t put in the body of a mumsnet message. they think it’s a nonexistent member

symbol for at then no space caiusschools

Caius stuff, Cambridge stuff, admissions tips, interviews with students and staff, etc

This was a rule at my college as well; I'm pretty sure it's university wide and extremely antiquated.

This advice is four years old, but probably still applicable.
When he submits a digital passport-style photo for the Supplementary Application Questionnaire (or whatever they call it these days) he should be aware that this is the photo that will be on the camcard he uses for the next three years (four if he does an MMath).

Caius part of Gonville + Caius dates back to the 16th century. Caius was a doctor not a nobleman.

Don’t think it’s because you’re common. I suspect the difference is that you don’t know anyone who has been and you don’t feel the need to blag it.

And if your son has that mentality that’s really good. That will stand him in good stead if he gets into Cambridge. There are 2:1 tutorials where he will work with an academic and another student on his course work. Being able to admit that he doesn’t know something he’ll get stuff out of that system. I have spoken to academics who have done tutorials where they can see a student isn’t doing well and the student won’t say anything as they are afraid or embarrassed. It often ends badly apparently.

Prospective students are always welcome to look around colleges - just go to the Porters Lodge and explain you are an applicant.

The open day in July is the best time to look at Depts, there is another open day in October but it’s more focused on colleges.

there’s a free online guide to STEP written by the late Stephen Siklos, who was an amazing maths professor.

Thinking about it, the ten terms post graduation added to nine since matriculation is almost 6 years.

Mad, but then the conversion into MA is mad and no one ever uses it as a title.

@SOWK Dr Siklos was my director of studies in the mid 80s. His motto seemed to be 'don't worry about the 2s' ie concentrate on the overall method, don't fuss about details until you have got that. Has stood me in good stead for 40 years.

Trinity college is Issac Newton’s Alma mater, (Not to be confused with Trinity hall or Tit Hall college which is round the back)

Just to say the competition to study maths at any college in Cambridge is intense and at least 50% of undergraduate places goes to international students reflecting its academic reputation.

Wow! That is pretty outrageous, @Ineffable23. I’m surprised no one has challenged it, especially as it could be considered to be discriminatory as it affects women more than men. Not many 18 year olds who go to university are married but 70% of mature students are female and (because they are older) more likely to be married/divorced when they matriculate.

I can confirm that Cambridge also has bops, @ClamFandango. Imperial does too.

Magdalen/Magdalene/Maudlin is just a historical quirk of language/pronunciation but Caius/Keys is pure snobbery and elitism, albeit historical snobbery and elitism 😂 John Keys latinised his name to Caius.

They have access funds for students from financially disadvantaged backgrounds. Might it be helpful to know about that?

https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/st-johns-college-top-studentships

You can also email the admissions tutor and ask for advice ahead of time. There are special schemes for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to come and visit. You should definitely ring up and ask.

I think the thing you probably need to know most is that the University may be old, but the staff are all normal everyday people living on quite low salaries and scraping along just like the rest of us. If you are short of money, they are too, and you'll be in good company talking to the academics.

I’ve got loads…
Right so ‘gowns’… do you mean the academic gowns or ballgowns and suits? Or both? Do women have to wear dresses under an academic gown? Can women wear suits? Do you have to buy these gowns?

Is there a STEP exam for everything or just for maths? Can you not apply to Oxbridge on just your A level results? If you did really well could you not apply to Oxbridge through clearing like other universities… ?

How are parents meant to magically know that there’s an early entrance exam to prep for? What year do we start mentioning to the school if we want them to put our kids in for it? No wonder it’s a socially exclusive outcome. Early processes like that might as well have been perfectly designed to exclude anyone at a less clued-up school. I know Oxbridge colleges are genuinely trying their best to widen the net, but this is a big systemic obstacle.

Also who decides whether a postcode is deprived or not if that is taken into account? In many areas there is huge disparity of income literally living next door to each other. Postcode seems a very blunt tool. Isn’t household income better?

Also why would a college care if your child is LGBTQ when it comes to entry? Do they also give favourable points for disability, maternity, other protected characteristics that attract prejudice and put up barriers to education? what about care leavers or young people who have come here and don’t have secure citizenship of the UK etc etc. I feel sorry for kids who lay out the personal struggles they might have and still don’t get in.

And how do you tell which are the rich colleges? If you have to apply per college, following this advice doesn’t everyone apply to the same rich ones?

Are the entrance requirements per subject to get on the course, or are they per college requirements? ie does getting in to do French at college X need different A level results than getting into college Y to do French?
Or does the French department say, this year we only want to let in AAA* or whatever?