Cambridge. Things we don't know we don't know.

[Sorenlorrenson]

My son is set on studying maths at Cambridge. We are working class and don't know anyone who went to Cambridge.
I have recently found out that Magdalene and Caius are not pronounced how they are spelt. There must be loads of stuff like this, stuff we don't know because we are poor and common.
If you know something you think we don't, please share.

My son is a straight white man from an outer London comprehensive but studied at King's. His friends were a real mix of backgrounds; the only things they had in common were being nerds and hating rowers.

He didn’t do Maths but another STEM course. He had A* in Physics, Maths and Further Maths but even so did the slow stream Maths for his course as the faster stream was bonkers.

The horrid thing about Cambridge must be when the wider family get excited about the offer and then you are one of the 50% who don't make it.

@Needmoresleep I’d have said ‘the horrid thing’ about Cambridge for Maths is actually how difficult it is to get in, but then some of us don’t care about keeping up appearances and what the wider family think

There can be a level of excitement within a family when, say, grandchild, gets a Cambridge offer. Other family members may not fully understand that the odds are still only 50%. Or their name is read out in school assembly. If you see this as "keeping up appearances" so be it. But for many, the Oxford offer, which is far far more certain can be a lot more straightforward.

Some may see this as a simple matter of 'keeping up appearances". However these will be seriously bright kids who are at the top of their school year, missing out on a place at the last minute can be difficult. And more so because lots of people around won't understand the Cambridge process. I was just throwing it out there. I have heard people suggest that if going through the process again they would pick Oxford because of this.

That’s a bit mean. Lots of families have no experience of anyone going to university and of course they are happy and excited for the grandchild / niece / nephew.

What you call “ keeping up appearances “ is what others might call “ having a loving and supportive extended family “.

A family and school that has never know anyone get an Oxbridge offer will be excited. What is wrong with that? And the kid will feel a lot of pressure to get the grades and go, for that and many other reasons. I don’t see that as keeping up appearances at all.

It’s not keeping up appearances, but putting a lot of pressure on a kid. Of course I was excited and hopeful when the dcs applied, but told no one at all. And their school wasn’t that bothered. In fact dd’s tutor group person in the sixth form sniffily enquired as to why she hadn’t applied to the local university, an ex-HE college at bottom of all league tables, so no expectations there!

@J0S @CalamitiousJoan you’re right of course about families that have never known anyone go to Oxbridge. Absolutely right to be excited and “keeping up appearances” was too harsh.

But I wasn’t talking about families where there’s no experience of going to university let alone Oxford/Cambridge. I was responding directly to Needmoresleep, who has written before about how her son from Westminster School got rejected from Cambridge and family members were disappointed as his father and cousins went to Oxbridge - that’s a very different set of family circumstances to a family where a state school student may be the first to go.

Mine was a general point, and meant to be helpful.

No desire to "keep up appearances" on our part. Oxford and Cambridge are just two of a number of world class universities available to British students.

Oddly, or perhaps not, it was MIL who was most invested in DS's Oxbridge application. She had not been to University herself and an Oxbridge place seems to have acquired a unique status within our culture.

Ok Absolutely there are other world class universities available to British students, including many in the US these days, but Oxford & Cambridge will always have a special reputation, whether people think it’s deserved or not.

My implied point remains: if someone is more in favour of applying to Oxford (where Maths is less well regarded) than Cambridge because the application system of Cambridge puts up the hopes of family members, then maybe they want to have a good think about why they’re applying. It’s a harsh world and 17+ year olds applying should be prepared for how they’ll deal with rejection.

Anyway, this started out as a fun thread! We all know there are other universities and life doesn’t end if you don’t get in to Cambridge, that surely doesn’t need to be said. The OP’s son wants to go and that’s great.

Thanks.

At the risk of labouring the point, whilst I would absolutely agree that tip top mathematicians aim for Cambridge, perhaps Trinity, I would argue that others who are strong but less sure of a place might also consider Oxford. A degree at any of the COWI universities will give an undergraduate a good foundation and open up more or less the same opportunities. It's not just about family/school expectations. 50% of those sitting on Cambridge offers will miss because of STEP, many then going onto Warwick or Imperial. If you have your heart set on dreaming spires and the college system, then there is a decision to be made about whether to play relatively safe and apply to Oxford. One thing is certain. Unless you are a complete genius, any of the COWI courses should be interesting and challenging.

I agree with this

Or even if you are a complete genius. So will be a good proportion of your academic staff at any of the COWI Schools of Maths

The interview could be daunting for a number of reasons including being a strange place and unfamiliar people.

Most Cambridge colleges still interview UK candidates online rather than in-person. The number interviewing in-person post-Covid is increasing each year, with 8 in 2024, but it’s still a minority.

My implied point remains: if someone is more in favour of applying to Oxford (where Maths is less well regarded) than Cambridge because the application system of Cambridge puts up the hopes of family members, then maybe they want to have a good think about why they’re applying.

Families may be disappointed for different reasons. An applicant who is the first in their family to go to uni let alone Oxbridge (whether whether white British or 1st/2nd/3rd etc generation immigrant family or foreign student) may have socio-economic reasons for not wanting to disappoint their family not simply academic ones.

Yes @Mirabai although not getting into Oxford or Cambridge obviously doesn’t mean the candidate won’t get in anywhere; they’re highly likely to get a place elsewhere and so not be a disappointment for socio-economic reasons. Although I appreciate the future potential earnings with an Oxbridge degree may be higher than with most other degrees, that’s also changing with more blind recruitment policies.

So just a specific barb at needsmoresleep who was trying to be kind and helpful on the thread. Lovely.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting they won’t get in anywhere.

Needmoresleep was just trying to be helpful. Bringing up her son’s specific circumstances from years gone by is neither appropriate nor relevant - even if she has posted about it on other threads in the past.

@cosmiccat 'Having autistic traits seem to help too'...music to my ears. DD 14 is autistic & naturally wired for maths. She had her sights set on maths at Cambridge in a worryingly single minded way so I'm doing my best to scope out things in advance.
Would you declare an autism diagnosis on application or not mention it in case it puts them off. It's very specifically the reason for her natural maths ability. I also feel she'd need to declare it as she presents quite awkwardly & sometimes misses the gist of the spoken word...she was waitlisted at top school at age 11 for how she came across in interview despite being in the top 10% of its entrance exam. We didn't know she was autistic at the time & I'm still slightly scarred at the interviewing history teacher's feedback on her. As she often tells me, she's 'not like other girls' 😁

There's a box on the UCAS form to declare any physical or mental health issues. Universities like to know about these so that they can provide support. A "middle way" is for students to fill in that box with any diagnosis, but not then mention it again in their Personal Statement.

The UCAS process is undergoing changes at the moment, so that might not be the situation when your DD applies.

Having autistic traits at Cambridge is a total non-issue - especially in Maths and STEM. If anything, it might even put them in the majority (?) - and that includes many of the tutors who, while experts in their specific fields, are not exactly renowned for their social / interpersonal skills. Just declare anything like ASD, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia. The colleges will really help in any way they can and it definitely won’t be held against them.

DS declared his disabilities in the relevant section on the UCAS form. The college sent an email asking anyone with disabilities to fill in a form about access needs for interview; DS returned the form but didn't need or request any access arrangements.

My son who is autistic is doing a similar course at another university ( not Cambridge ) and Student Support told him that 25% of the students in his department are neuro diverse . Of course that’s only those who have a diagnosis and have contacted student support, so it’s probably much higher.

cosmiccats I’m so sorry that is awful and ableist. I hope the current school is supportive. Your DD sounds great.
I keep telling my DC that school may be a very hard experience but they are likely to find more like minded people later on in a more specific environment where for everyone choosing to study something they love, is one of the main reasons for being there.

@SkillDuggery Oxbridge earnings are only higher for some grads. Definitely not all. Very decent grads from elsewhere who didn’t nail Oxbridge by a whisper are still on the premises. They might also have more ambition. All of this counts. Some of the more obscure subjects studied don’t always lead to high salaries!