Could work ethic be the one thing schools could teach to really change results

[gofigure5]

Sometimes when looking at my DC and talking to other parents who lament the lack of work ethic/drive (for academics) in their children too, it seems a topic that comes up very frequently.

I should add that these kids are all at an academic (independent) school and and did very well in primary and went on to have grammar school offers so they certainly have the potential to achieving highly.

Issue is, they still, at 15/16/18, tend to procrastinate and be very uneven in their application towards study.

At home we talk about the importance of effort. I do get frustrated when I see they only put in the bare minimum. DC have class mates who are super bright and don't do much work (or at least they say they don't) but most of the others are not necessarily brighter than them at all but they do seem to put an enormous amount of effort and hours into their work and so reap the benefits.

My DC's school, and I suppose many schools, teach study/revision skills and talk about the importance of setting out what to do, time tabling and using past papers.

But when I look at the common denominator amongst my friends and our children who seem not to be reaching their potential, it's this lack of drive/work ethic (and instead their procrastination) that seems to be what sets them apart from those who are successful.

We have noticed that, generally speaking, children of teachers ALL seem to work consistently hard and get great results (even those who are 'average'. Teacher kids are clearly not all naturally super bright; some are, some are not, as would be expected amongst all groups, but there seems to be this ingredient which means they work consistently hard with a steely drive and work ethic).

Both my DH and I are driven, our kids see us work hard, help others and volunteering in sports/the community and we always frame things in terms of working hard rather than talking about 'intelligence'. At times we do discuss results (and might ask what was achieved v the class average score) which I guess is a no-no.

Would love to know if there are schools out there that actively teach working hard/drive/work ethic (and, if so, how do they do it) AND what teacher parents/grandparents do that seems to produce such hard working children who go on to do so well.

I'm not really sure how this can be taught, or at least not in schools.

At school, the way that things are assessed allow for students who are bright (or lucky) enough to do well without putting in too much effort. In society, work ethic is only one of many elements that lead to success in the work place and life generally (physical appearance, network, sex, race, class, disabilities etc all play into this too).

I am sure children benefit from seeing their parents show a good work ethic, but even then this may not be enough to filter over to them also displaying this behaviour. If your parents work hard but the child feels like they are never around, that may cause them to view this behaviour differently to the parent. Equally, if the parent and/or school is not allowing the child the independence to make their own decisions and mistakes (allowing them to fail) then they also may not get the message.

I feel that how childrens achievements are assessed really needs to change. But that would involve a complete overhaul of the education system. As a society, there could be greater recognition for the people who consistently deliver without being the types to set the world on fire. There definitely needs to be greater equality between people.

The people who I know who worked hard when younger are more calm now as they're set up in good careers.
Those who didn't, seemed to be more stressed.
You can instil a good work ethic without being strict. If you're too strict, then dc work hard so they don't get told off. That's quite stressful.
The balance is to make them see that they're doing it for themselves and the future they could have.

@foghead

The balance is to make them see that they're doing it for themselves and the future they could have.

Nail on the head. Some parents/children seem to have a very adversarial approach and don't actually realise that education is for the benefit of the pupil, not the teacher/school. That mentality is something that BOTH parents AND teachers need to change. Kids need to get it into their heads that an education is for their benefit and that involves giving them information about options and opportunities that are open to them with a good education and closed to them without. Unfortunately, far too many parents don't have that mentality themselves so can't pass it on to their kids, so it's something that schools/teachers have to do somehow. Somehow got to get the kids on board that doing homework and revising for tests is actually for their own benefit and not the teacher!!

I think conscientiousness is mostly an innate personality thing. But schools and parents can certainly kill it.

I think more explanation of the real life implications/practicalities rather than the artificial "school" life of reward charts and punishments, as that is not what happens in real life! Kids just learn to regard detentions etc as part of "normal" life so it has no impact on them.

Schools do this. Constantly. Of course they do - why would we not use all the weapons in their arsenal to persuade kids to do as well as possible?! Apart from anything else, the kids' results are extremely important to the success and reputation of the school and teachers!

Kids sit through endless assemblies about the paths to success, the detrimental effects of poor behaviour, effort and attendance, inspirational tales of people who have overcome adversity through hard work and achieved great success. Schools are plastered with motivational posters about real life applications of what you learn in school subjects, pictures of famous and successful people with sound bites about how they got where they were today. Sometimes speakers, authors, former students come in and give talks etc.

I'm afraid that all of this is just background noise to most kids. When people talk about how schools should motivate kids and improve their motivation, I'm afraid they have rather rose-tinted spectacles about how much notice they took of lectures in assemblies at school!

The balance is to make them see that they're doing it for themselves and the future they could have.

They are told this all the time. You must realise that most teenagers don't really think beyond next month! Well... at least, often not until late in Y12 when they suddenly realise we weren't lying about the fact that their predicted UCAS grades will be based on their ability and their work so far, not on what they've now realised they need for the universities they've now decided they want to go to!

I don't think you can teach work ethic. However, one situation that often gives rise to it is immigration. DC whose families have moved country (in often less than ideal circumstances) or who are refugees, often have a noticeably higher drive to learn than the settled population. Lots of studies suggesting this is a factor in London's high levels of educational achievement.

Also it really does need to come from within and learning desire needs to align with what's on offer.

DH and I are both teachers and had/have a strong drive for academic learning. Our DD does not, but the way she learns isn't well matched to the education system. Also (and I think this is important), DH and I found learning easy so we were always getting positive feedback.

I also think school was more fun when we went. Teachers could be, and often were, genuinely eccentric. Nothing like learning from someone with a mad passion for something and no National Curriculum to worry about. Plus only a few people went to university.

A lot of DC are on unsuitable academic courses nowadays and the primary school curriculum and maths courses have gone mad in terms of content/difficulty.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft

Schools do this. Constantly. Of course they do - why would we not use all the weapons in their arsenal to persuade kids to do as well as possible?!

Perhaps it's too much "white noise" with speeches, posters, etc., and not enough of actual real life advice as to how to actually achieve success to persuade them that they can actually do it themselves, rather than it always being "someone else" who succeeds because of x, y, z (insert their own excuse here).

Putting up posters and getting speakers in is actually a pretty lazy way of "ticking boxes" and the kids know that. It may be aspirational to have a retired astronaut come into a school and give a speech about how they got there, but the kids know their chances of becoming an astronaut are millions to one against. Replicate that mindset with all the other aspirational speakers doing things that most kids know are well out of their reach - it does more harm than good. Needs to be realistic and "real life" based, i.e. the kind of jobs that people "like them" do, the kind of transferrable skills that people have on their street, etc., pathways to success, etc.

I just feel the vast majority of the kids I teach have lost most of the joy of learning by the time I get them (GCSE/A-level).

I also see that my DD has some fabulous skills that I don't - just not ones particularly celebrated by our educational system.

I think the educational systems on the continent have much to recommend them. Two teenagers I know are going through the Swiss system and there's much more focus on career pathways, into vocational AND professional jobs. We sorely need more of that in the UK. Our expectations are both too high in some areas and too low in others.

It's a mess!

Teacher here . Eldest child is naturally very bright in STEM based subjects and always got great results without much revision in exams but now is finding university quite tough as they struggle with motivation etc. My youngest child is midway through A levels and has the most incredible work ethic and is constantly working hard.
I have had a very hands off approach with both school wise since secondary education- obviously I help when asked and encourage them. I would say that when they were learning to read, I did that religiously and they were read to endlessly.
However, they and I went to very bog standard primary and comprehensive schools and I have always taught in deprived areas so have no experience of private education.

Perhaps it's too much "white noise" with speeches, posters, etc., and not enough of actual real life advice as to how to actually achieve success to persuade them that they can actually do it themselves, rather than it always being "someone else" who succeeds because of x, y, z (insert their own excuse here).

Putting up posters and getting speakers in is actually a pretty lazy way of "ticking boxes" and the kids know that.

Ah yes, lazy old teachers eh?

No. The posters are not central to our efforts. And no, organising intetesting speakers and author visits for the students is not lazy . Did you ignore the other stuff I mentioned? Their heads of year talk to them in assemblies. Their form teachers talk to them. There are parts of the Personal Developments curriculum devoted to exactly this. Their subject teachers talk to them. I'll ask again - why do you think teachers and schools wouldn't do this?

A large part of teaching is motivating students to realise they can succeed, showing them the steps toward improving, talking about the skills they need, and what they need to do to achieve what they are capable of. It's built into everything we do. I honestly wonder what people think teachers actually do in schools.

I guess what parents don't really want to accept is that maybe their children are being taught how to work hard, work smart and succeed. Many of them jjust aren't really listening, either because they don't care or because they think everything will just fall in their lap without them trying very hard.

Fwiw I work in a girls' grammar school in the North of England. Not the kind that's full of wealthy kids because you have to buy a huge, expensive house to live near enough to get in. Massively multicultural, lots of Indian, Pakistani and Eastern European girls. Quite a lot of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. The work ethic is generally really good. We do everything we can to get them to work hard to succeed, but tbh their attitude is usually already set by the time they come to us. It comes from their personality and upbringing. It's obvious in the first half term of Year 7.

I understand that schools try to do a lot to inspire and motivate kids but there are probably only a few kids who step outside their family culture and do something different.
I once heard a story of a young man who came from a deprived background who saw the high rise offices in the City once and told himself he was going to work there one day, and he did!
His motivation came from looking at a building.
I think his is a rare story. Most people do what is familiar.

Interesting discussion.
No clue re teachers kids. The one in my DDs year has now left (most likely asked to leave) so the one example I have is rather different to OPs.
I wonder if talking to them about ethics etc is just white noise and it’s not until they see the proof. My youngest DD worked really hard for her end of year exams in yr9 last year and for the first time got good results (for her). She even said ‘oh my goodness revision does actually help’ 🙄🙄 So this half term she’s done a study timetable and has been working incredibly hard. Fingers crossed it’ll pay off. She very diligent in getting homework done etc but revision up until now has been a different story.
I think we also need to remember that peers have a great influence. So if kids are surrounded by hard workers or it’s cool to get homework in on time and do a good job / get a good grade rather than be bullied for being a geek that has to have a pretty decent impact!

DD1 in her 3rd year on an apprenticeship is amazed at the lack of work ethic from some of the grads who seem rather complacent. Obviously not all but quite a large percentage this year. Who knows if they’re burnt out from uni or if they think now they’ve got this great gig they don’t need to apply themselves? A sigh of relief at getting a grad scheme? Surely the application process would have found those with a decent work ethic? Or is it that she has crazy standards? And they actually have a work life balance?

I think it’s them and us raising its head here @NotDonna I suspect your DD is exaggerating or all the grads will be out. I suspect this won’t happen.

Also some DC really do work smart. They can work accurately and quickly. Decades ago I worked with DH - he wasn’t DH then. Even I could see he did his work quickly. Others just were not that good. He was bored and left to start his own company. The others stayed in the slow lane. All were happy enough but if you had seen DH in those days you would have thought what a loser. He actually was asleep in the office and his boss thought it was funny. He had easily finished what he needed to do and frankly might as well have worked part time. He didn’t remotely need a work ethic. Of course when it was his business it meant something and he was busy. Never did too many hours though. Never needed to.

She’s the only apprentice so there’s no ‘us’ and it’s the other grads that are in her other cohorts and the staff having to call them into account @TizerorFizz I think a fair few will be out! A shame as it’s a great opportunity.

I do think a lot of people have very unrealistic ideas of what can be taught to kids in school in terms of values, habits etc. However hard we try, however relevant, up-to-date, interesting and convincing we try to make the message, many will just roll their eyes and think that they (or whichever influencers they follow) know better. No doubt many of them do the same when their parents try to give them advice. It was ever thus, I'm afraid. Some of them listen, and some will learn the value of hard work later through experience though.

The old adage of "show me the child at 7 and I'll show you the man" has more than a grain of truth.

Encourage effort
Lead by example
Calm discipline based on talking
Both parents singing the same tune
Kids taught manners, to respect others (teachers included) and do their best even at things they find hard/aren't good at. Again, praising the effort and progress etc not the achievement.

Eventually the effort results in achievement and the penny drops. When kids are spoken to and with well (this is where teacher/coaching training helps) + the other things, kids fly.

We have had friends incredulous at how my husband deals with fallouts/tears with the kids when they were smaller. He is calm, talks them through things but still doesn't allow any wheedling. Just gets them to see if/how their behaviour was out of line, apologise and move on. Don't personalise it: the behaviour was rude, the child isn't necessarily rude. Make them see they can make amends and move forward. Don't bear grudges towards your kids so they don't ever think their parent thinks they are lazy, rude etc.

A lot of it I think is reflective, calm parenting especially in situations where tempers flare. My husband is an absolute pro at it and I am sure it's really helped our kids be calmer and more reflective.

The US high school my DCs went to had a wall of fame in the main hall, featuring photos and little brass plaques of about 300 alumni who had gone on to greatness in varied walks of life. Quite close by, there was a section of the wall devoted to 'student of the month' and lists of students who had managed to raise their GPA by a full grade that semester.

The many miles of corridors featured exhibitions of the students' artwork, photos of student life - performing arts, sports, music, service clubs, subject-based clubs, and the PE department walls featured photos of outstanding teams and individuals, along with trophy cases.

In short, the walls were a celebration of the students past and present, and they served as an implicit encouragement to celebrate achievement and creativity, and aim high yourself.

There were assemblies with guest speakers, which mainly focused on themes of social justice, some done well, and some that bored the kids to death. School musical and dance groups usually performed at the assemblies too.

There's no need to drive home the message of choices beyond school with a sledgehammer or force students to look beyond the walls of school too early. The school my DCs went to sought to provide a place the kids could consider their home, a nurturing environment of 3500+ students and well over 200 staff, as opposed to a train station where teens are just passing through en route to somewhere else, and they'd better make up their minds fast where that somewhere else is. Teens need a sense of belonging and an environment that inspires them in the here and now.

@NotDonna I really meant apprentices feeling superior to the grads. If the firm cannot recruitment the right people, and it’s a desirable place to work, I think the firm is to blame. Maybe they should have looked at those unis attended and grades achieved a bit more closely? It’s hugely expensive to recruit and then discard. Unless you do that model anyway! Some firms actually do that. If DC are square pegs in a round hole then that’s a problem for everyone. DH hasn’t found grads don’t work hard but some haven’t been that good in that some uni courses are not good prep for his engineering discipline. Too many spoon fed grads. They upped their recruitment processes as failure costs everyone.

Thanks, yes, I think this is very good advice.
The 'calm' is perhaps not always part of my own repertoire, sadly. ;) I can see how being innately calm plus having the teacher training could help in this regard.

Love this!

I've seen a wonderful wall of photo portraits of famous alumni in the corridor at a boys' independent and I thought it was inspiring for them.

More problematically perhaps, a couple of other well known independents I've visited had portraits and memorials for all the old boys killed in action, from long ago conflicts up to Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think a lot of UK state schools would like to celebrate their alumni but in terms of the buildings there's no money, no space and it's no-one's job. Running an alumni programme (rather than inviting the odd former student in, which we all do), is a proper job. It takes dedication and resources. I've only known one state school that really tried and they got a lot of stick at times for paying a professional fundraiser (who brought in a lot more than they cost!)