Could work ethic be the one thing schools could teach to really change results

[gofigure5]

Sometimes when looking at my DC and talking to other parents who lament the lack of work ethic/drive (for academics) in their children too, it seems a topic that comes up very frequently.

I should add that these kids are all at an academic (independent) school and and did very well in primary and went on to have grammar school offers so they certainly have the potential to achieving highly.

Issue is, they still, at 15/16/18, tend to procrastinate and be very uneven in their application towards study.

At home we talk about the importance of effort. I do get frustrated when I see they only put in the bare minimum. DC have class mates who are super bright and don't do much work (or at least they say they don't) but most of the others are not necessarily brighter than them at all but they do seem to put an enormous amount of effort and hours into their work and so reap the benefits.

My DC's school, and I suppose many schools, teach study/revision skills and talk about the importance of setting out what to do, time tabling and using past papers.

But when I look at the common denominator amongst my friends and our children who seem not to be reaching their potential, it's this lack of drive/work ethic (and instead their procrastination) that seems to be what sets them apart from those who are successful.

We have noticed that, generally speaking, children of teachers ALL seem to work consistently hard and get great results (even those who are 'average'. Teacher kids are clearly not all naturally super bright; some are, some are not, as would be expected amongst all groups, but there seems to be this ingredient which means they work consistently hard with a steely drive and work ethic).

Both my DH and I are driven, our kids see us work hard, help others and volunteering in sports/the community and we always frame things in terms of working hard rather than talking about 'intelligence'. At times we do discuss results (and might ask what was achieved v the class average score) which I guess is a no-no.

Would love to know if there are schools out there that actively teach working hard/drive/work ethic (and, if so, how do they do it) AND what teacher parents/grandparents do that seems to produce such hard working children who go on to do so well.

I agree but intrinsic motivation is also rare, and hugely important . Probably what your DD has.

I think it's a combination of things - see other posts recently about "how can I teach my kid to work hard and do what is needed when I don't think it's valuable", and this move towards education needing to be FUNCTIONAL. If it's not for something people aren't interested, rather than education and work being beneficial in its own right.

I do believe maturity also plays a huge part and that some achieve this way later than others. Which is why lack of success at school doesn't always indicate what comes next... some mature later and start to really put in the effort at different stages.

I have a friends who are both teachers, and they really really expect their kids to work hard at home. They organised their whole education from early years to gcse revision. The children were happy enough as they knew no different. They definitely did much more directed/specific stuff than we could as I guess they knew exactly what was expected.

Is there a sweet spot between not being too privileged so you don’t feel you actually need to work hard and not being too down trodden that you think it’s not worth it?

Very likely!

My kids all went to school in the US, where the grade point average system ensures you have to work consistently and well if you want to end up with a good average.

There are final exams every semester in every subject. Teachers often send a notification of the percentage needed in the final exam in order to get a specific letter grade for the semester.

I wonder if the thing about teachers' kids is also partly a question of respect?

We are not teachers but always put a lot of emphasis on dd having respect for her teachers and how hard they were working to support her learning. I think there was a part of her that probably felt that it would be wrong to let them down by no lot properly fulfilling her potential. Maybe teachers tend to instill a similar level of respect in their children for other teachers.

Then again, maybe dd is just a bit of a people pleaser?!

Mine don't achieve high grades compared to some on here but their work ethic is fab.
Things I did was involve them in discussions about my work. We talk about how my day looks etc. what I've done and how busy I've been.

Any extra money like a bonus or a won voucher was shared with them, I used to tell them I couldn't do my job well if they aren't putting in effort too, ie if you've done homework it's one less thing for me to take on so I've won £50 in the staff lottery so I take £25 and split the remaining between them.

I still pop the odd £5 for a Costa in their banks as a treat if I've seen them working hard.

I talk to them about bills, about the cost of food.

Mine are 20 and 18, both study, both work and help at home. They enjoy being involved in the house and their work

Yes!

All the narrative about how useless teachers are, how the education system is pointless, that it is the TEACHER'S fault that (insert inane complaint here) ultimately devalues education culturally.

If you look at cultures and countries where this kind of work ethic is the norm, there is a massive difference in terms of the way people see education and teachers. The children of teachers are more likely to be brought up like this...

I do think there should be more formalised "how to study/revise" sessions in schools from a pretty early age to actually give advice/options to pupils of all the different ways you can study and revise. It seems that lots of pupils spend a lot of time (or claim to) but achieve pretty poor outcomes, which tends to suggest they don't know how to study.

Alongside that, I think that there should be more feedback, again right through the years, and an end to open ended unchecked homework, such as "read chapter 1 for next lesson" or to complete worksheets that aren't marked, etc., as that just embeds a habit of not taking homework seriously and ultimately not doing it.

Also much earlier exposure to exam style questions, i.e. the common "compare and contrast" or "to what extent do you agree" etc that some pupils don't even see until the GCSE years whereas in other schools, they start to see that kind of question as early as year 7 so they get lots of practice long before exam season.

I've always thought that "skills" such as logic, critical thinking, etc should be taught as separate skill subjects rather than being "packaged" into other subjects such as History, sciences, etc.

I think you're right that she is intrinsically motivated. Not sure how rare that is, though. Personally, I tend to see intrinsic motivation as being our natural state when we're little but it somehow gets squashed out of us!

I didn't see much of that in the affluent area of the US where my DCs went to school. Affluence, kids having nice things, exciting family trips, huge parties to mark milestones, ability to afford cars for teens, etc. are not the dividing line separating strivers from coasters. I've observed kids from well off homes doing exceptionally well in the school system, and not because of tutoring for exams because in the US your grade point average is what matters, requiring consistent hard work, ability to prioritise, and ability to defer gratification.

Imo it boils down to having a family ethos of ambition, combined with an elementary school system where children are not rushed or pushed into reading when they're not ready, or writing neatly at age 4, where mistakes are not treated as "Ha! Gotcha!" moments by teachers, where there is no setting in classrooms or year groups, and kids are allowed to decide for themselves who they are and what their ability and potential are.

The damage done by having well recognised sets in elementary classrooms is immense. I am so glad my DCs never had to endure that. I doubt one of my DCs in particular would have ever considered a career as a doctor if some teacher had decided who he was and what his potential was at the age of 7, 8, 9, or 10, or even 16 or 17.

Praising effort and the traits that support consistent work (being organised, keeping your desk and materials neat and to hand, asking for help when you need it) make a difference, as does a culture where teachers and parents take the long view and trust an educational process that seeks to meet the child where he is and go from there, not push square pegs into round holes and then wonder why they're all disengaged from school by age 14.

The grade point average system puts the future in the hands of the child. The requirement on the part of many universities that applicants provide evidence of extra curricular activities, service, leadership, and interests outside of school, including part time work, mean it behoves teens to fill their days and organise their time well. The community where I live has no graffiti, and no crowds of teens out all evening at a loose end.

I agree that the GPA system encourages more consistent hard work, students see the results of their work right away and it's less all-or-nothing.

My son works pretty hard but not as hard as he might, because his homework and tests rarely 'count for anything'. It's easier to coast a bit and then revise really hard for the 2 exams per year.

I agree on the importance of work ethic. It is very noticeable that the most successful
people in my profession are the ones with the strongest work ethic and ambition.

However, I disagree that this is for schools to teach. Harvard research found that the single best predictor of future success was whether kids do chores. This is for parents in the home, not teachers at school. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30507727/

I agree with @mathanxiety and @dreamingbohemian The students at my RG university are nearly as strong as the students at my American university, but a much smaller percent of UGs study effectively.

This thread is an interesting read

My best friend is a teacher and this runs true with her DC who have “perfect” academics.

I have one “bright” one that is incredibly focused and driven when the end goal is worthwhile. He's always looking for an angle, a shortcut, and is a hedonist. I have another that has found academia harder but this has made her more driven to achieve. I suspect she will end up with better A levels than her sibling as she is putting the work in and determined to get to her first choice uni.

They have both been raised the same way. We don’t parent as prescriptively as my best friend and certainly once they are in sixth form we step back to ensure they develop independent study skills ready for uni.

I don’t think schools can teach this, nor is it automatically passed on via the home. Teaching delayed gratification helps a lot as does getting them out to work in a hard Saturday job as early as possible. There is nothing like pot washing in a sweaty kitchen under a shouty chef to teach work ethic and make doing well in school something to work towards

Plus ça change!
Human nature is human nature. I remember once in a supermarket a young girl (say ten or 11) was telling her mother she needed to get on with a book report. Hey mum said 'why? It's not due for another week'. The girl said 'I like to get ahead'.
You can read, sit with them, demonstrate through your own actions, cobije, threatened, bribe, but if they are going to be procrastinators or 'lazy' or just uninterested that's the way they are going to be.
I have one child (son) who at 20 has proved himself to be extremely hard working and disciplined- outside of school! He gets up at 6am, heads to the gym, does a full days work, three days a week a part time job afterwards, other nights kickboxing. He does his job to the best of his abilities. At school? Couldn't get him to study ever, no matter what the incentive, and he came out with three GCSEs.
My daughter is an academic. She loves nothing better than sitting in a library and working on an essay. Three A stars plus Astar EPQ last year and off to Durham in the Autumn. I didn't have to do anything to encourage her. But who's to say which one will be ultimately more 'successful'?
And myself- intelligent but not very diligent. I did ok at school - top 15%. My older sister was an over achiever who went to an Ivy League uni and is now a doctor. I'd say I'm naturally smarter than her but didn't have the discipline nor drive.
I imagine there's loads like me who do fine but don't really reach their academic potential. But so what? I did a creative degree and had a good career.
Looking at my children's friends (18-21), not one is sitting at home gaming or otherwise wasting their time. They all have jobs or are at uni. Not everyone needs to be a high flier, in fact things would grind to a halt pretty quick if everyone was high achieving.

Totally agree with this! I'm a teacher and always encourage my two dc to see the teacher's side of things as well as the educational value of anything school suggests.
I would also add that they see me, day in - day out, sat with the laptop and piles of essays/ exercise books at the dining room table. To them, this is what education looks like and they have both responded in kind. I worry more that they will have no sense of work/ life balance as I have little!!

It will different at different ages. By age 3 children from fairly academic homes know many many more words than children from disadvantaged homes. They pick it up by osmosis but most important of all is that they feel loved and are secure. If you are beating them with sticks until they can repeat their times tables then you have lost just about every battle other than that they can recite the times tables.

Then up to teenage for many of us a lot of parental effort goes in and fairly bright genes/DNA. At one point we had 3 children learning 3 instruments never mind private school homework at primary school age so just supervising all those practices of the music and the homework was quite a task but worth it. In fact when the last of the 5 did his last grade 8(I accompanied him at the piano at home almost every day and in his exams) for me it was a very sad day.

As teenagers for me buying a peer group at an academic school was part of the plan - if everyone in the class will be going to a good university then children who follow the herd are likely to see that as the norm too.

However careers are a marathon not a sprint and I was talking to one son today who is in his first solicitor job about this today when he said he didn't know why some people find some things very stressful and he doesn't (he is very relaxed and laid back). In a way his special power is NOT being over working, never being off sick, always just getting on with things, no stress, calm, not working all night.

I think we mostly have a good work ethic in our family. I have hardly had a day off sick in 40 years. I have worked full time without a break for 40 years as a lawyer. I like my work. I don't work through the night or anything like that - just a nice balance and the children see that. However children are to an extent born not made and some are happy without earning much but just living their life and that is fine too. It would be a dull world if everyone were the same.

@gofigure5

Very interesting observations. I’ve seen this at first hand. DC who have plenty (mine) put enough effort in to do well. At school I rather think DD1 coasted at times and her friends said she did at uni! My DH was, he says, the same. Pulls it out when he needs to. He started his own company and earned a lot. DD is self employed and earns a lot. Works hard enough: plays hard too. Same with DH. DD1 had no formal homework each week between coming off a reading scheme in y2 and starting at boarding school in y7. Junior state school didn’t believe in it.

DD1 was always enthusiastic and always did loads of extra activities at primary and then shoehorned between 12 GCSEs. DD2 was fairly laid back at school but in work she’s not. They both did prep at senior school so no procrastination in this house.

A relative (boy) has always been allowed to pick and choose what he does. So that was extended to school work. Procrastination about everything and hours on the computer every day! Or a tantrum, Easier to give in. So the DS did what he wanted. Definitely more intelligent than results. No clubs or organised activities at all. No sport either.

Other dc in that family are girls but they were not given the latitude. They did the best they possibly could. The expectations seemed to be higher though - so is this about boys in the family? Not sure! Or even mum and boy relations? Parents both very averse to setting rules and ensuring dc follow them: no arguments. So the girls decided to comply with school requirements and the DS was a nuisance at school. His DM thought that was funny, even an exclusion. I think the parents encouraged procrastination and didn’t see DS was wrong. The easy, no argument, route was to give in. No sanctions for poor behaviour. Yet the girls didn’t behave like this. So is it personality? Confusing isn’t it?!

I'm a teacher. Both my dc are very bright, but certainly different in terms of work ethic. That's largely just down to personality imo.

Arguably, schools do teachwork ethic, or at least they try very hard to. It's built into the normal stuff schools do, and what teachers say to kids all the time. They are rewarded for hard work and given sanctions for not doing their work. Their test and exam results also reward hard work. How else do you think a work ethic should be taught in schools?

As has always been the case, pre-teens and teenagers have a lot on their mind that is more appealing to them than school work. Giving them lectures about the importance of a good work ethic is not going to change that. I also agree that kids who have never had to work hard to do really well in their early school years and have never experienced failure can sometimes find it very hard to push themselves later on.

I do think it can be innate. Dh parents both left school at 16 and are the least pushy parents ever but Dh driven worked so hard got to Cambridge. His drive was to escape his shitty home town. Kids with cushy middle class lives won’t have this.

DS had a good work ethic up until the first lockdown. Always completed his homework the day it was set ( they had up to one and a half hours daily). He was organised because he liked to have his weekends free for sport.

The pandemic had quite a negative effect. And post pandemic DH and I suffered life threatening illnesses while he was doing A levels. He drifted and although he got decent grades, he had so much more in the tank.

We encouraged him to have a gap year and have some surgery on a damaged shoulder. He wasn’t able to work for some time but did have a vigorous programme of physio to stick to. We have seen the drive gradually return, as much through boredom than anything else. And he has religiously stuff to his physio with good results.

He has been remodelling the garden with me and has enjoyed the whole design, planning and project managing. He has even brought in a couple of friends to help him with the heavy work.
Most importantly he has been working to a deadline so tomorrow we should finish stage 1.

I was very concerned that if he moved straight from school to uni he would continue to drift. So this year has been more about giving him space to process, rebuild and rediscover his drive.

I’m seeing the drive return and the resilience. And a better work ethic. I am paying him for the work, but he is also very motivated to complete the work before he goes away next week so DH and I can start enjoying the garden. It’s actually lovely to see the adult emerging.