A Level Choices

[TheBlackCatWithTheWhiteSpot]

Dd is having a bit of a wobble with A Level choices.

She has picked 3 - history, eng lit and maths.

School make them do either EPQ, core maths or another A or AS in Y12.

Obviously can’t do core maths as doing A level. EPQ seems unnecessary when she is doing 2 NEA subjects anyway.
So thinking of either Further Maths AS/full A level or Spanish AS.

She wants to do a history degree, hoping to apply to Oxford.
She is quite pragmatic, so is considering history and economics joint honours for potentially increased employability - but I would have thought maths A level sufficient for that.

Pros for Further maths are she is good at it and enjoys it, would keep the door open for a maths degree, probably won’t feel like that much extra work as she is already doing maths A level. Not sure whether just to do AS or to go for full A level.

Cons - it is a lot of maths given she is unlikely to want to do a maths degree, maybe it is not that “broad and balanced”- school are obsessed with breadth and balance.

Pros for Spanish - another lang is useful for history and reading sources in original language. She enjoys it and is good at it. It is a bit different to other choices - maybe complements well?

Cons - doesn’t really keep any extra doors open at this stage. Everyone she has spoken to says it is easier to get an A/A star at further maths than MFL (don’t know how true this is tho).

What would you advise? I think they are both good options TBH, but Dd wants to make a decision so she can stop thinking about it!

How about Economics if she does fancy PPE or joint hons History and Economics as an A level?

On indeed FM if she is seriously good at maths as that would make an application for any form of Oxbridge Economics degree more competitive?

Don't rule out the EPQ especially if they do it on year 12 rather than year 13 It's an excellent way to explore an area of history not covered in her A level and for her to use the research and additional learning in her preparing for uni section of the questionnaire that will replace the personal statement.

Further it teaches skills such as referencing which mean she hits the ground running at uni. Additionally although Oxford don't base offers on doing an EPQ or drop grades they say they do recognise the work and skills it brings when considering the application holistically.

Further maths every time !

Maths, f maths, history and English is very balanced indeed. The maths will give her a real break from history and English. EPQ opens no extra doors, f maths opens some extra doors….

Universities cannot fill MFL departments. Obviously not the top flight elite ones but you get 4 other options. Economics is more difficult to get into and FM is better for that. If she’s worried about full FM A level (high grades reflect self selecting high flyers) and is truly better at Spanish, do Spanish. Neither is wrong. An Oxford History and Spanish grad is hardly unemployable. Is she good enough to get onto Oxford economics if she’s not a dead cert for FM? Play to her strengths I think. If that’s Spanish, it’s Spanish.

Long ago, I did history, economics, maths and further maths. I had to drop the economics in the end as I had a long illness and couldn't do the coursework in time. I would suggest the Spanish, which as you said is useful for reading sources. Can she decide on whether to do an extra full A-Level or an AS in year 12 after she's done the AS exams?

Agree with spiralling about the EPQ. Worth considering.
It doesn't really take up that much time, can give something extra to add to the PS and to discuss in potential interviews.

And many unis will factor it into grade offers- so that if a student has a good EPQ grade , this can allow more flexibility if an A level grade is dropped.

Dd did PPE at Oxford recently with maths, history and English language with an EPQ. FM for Oxford economics is useful, but in her case the EPQ proved more valuable as she dropped the more maths focused economics papers and focused on global economics. Her EPQ had an international relations slant which helped at the interview stage as her A levels didn't include P P or E.

I agree economics AS would be an obvious choice, but school only offer a full A level, not AS.

I don’t know about deciding to continue to full A level with FM - Dd seems to think they do all the ordinary maths syllabus in Y12, then do FM in y13. So yes, I suppose you could decide at the beginning of Y13.

I think she is equally good at Spanish and at maths, she is sitting further maths GCSE.

I think she was just weighing up whether there was benefit to doing a whole extra A level vs just AS when it won’t be her degree subject. But good point about making her more competitive for economics.

My son is currently studying maths, further maths, physics & computer science. He was a little apprehensive to begin with, he'd heard a lot of people say further maths is very difficult, - it is very time consuming & he's constantly doing homework, however he loves it & finds it very interesting - he wants to go to Cambridge University.

EPQ is a lot of work, it can get you a lower offer for uni but not Oxford I don’t think. How much tutor support and equipment support do the school offer? . My DC made a film. The school film studies department didn’t offer much advice because they are only there for Film Studies A Level students. He managed to do it all and get a good grade, the tutor was ok but had a few hundred tutees

Re how much time does EPQ take, depends what you do. At our sixth form students doing essay subjects were encouraged to produce an artefact not write a book/extended essay etc. Most of the marks go on the independent research. It’s very time consuming and most people didn’t finish their projects until part way through the summer hols. One person lost his blog as he didn’t keep up the subscription and had to do something smaller in the final weeks Aug/Sept. 400 out of the 1200 cohort flunked and didn’t do it

My DC did not do EPQs but many of their friends did. It was a mixed outcome with a small number very much enjoying the experience (esp those driven to explore unusual and/or cross-disciplinary subjects) and a larger number who dropped out or limped on. Those doing two NEAs and an EPQ found it all quite heavy duty.

Mine did FM alongside humanities A levels and said the 'brain training' instilled by FM very much enhanced the logical thinking required in their humanities subject. They also said, as might be expected, that the FM and Maths supported each other, so felt more like 1.75 A levels, rather than two (they studied them in parallel rather than sequentially).

Maths and FM at A level are a big step up from GCSE and best suited to those achieving 9 at GCSE. My DC were 8/9 borderline at GCSE Maths; one accelerated into the FM because they really loved the pure maths; the other got there but had to work hard as their strength was more on the stats side which forms only part of the whole FM syllabus. It might be worth checking with DD's maths teacher as to whether your DD is displaying strong aptitude in the GCSE elements that really open out at A level.

EPQ seems unnecessary when she is doing 2 NEA subjects anyway.

I agree. DD's geography EPQ ended up being about 6,000 words. Doing an EPQ and two NEAs is overkill IMO.

Don't rule out the EPQ especially if they do it on year 12 rather than year 13 It's an excellent way to explore an area of history not covered in her A level and for her to use the research and additional learning in her preparing for uni section of the questionnaire that will replace the personal statement.

I disagree. NEAs require research, evaulating data, report writing, referencing etc. It is like a mini dissertation. In fact writing an NEA was good practice for DD for when she went to university.

I shared these answers with Dd. Tizer’s points about playing to your strengths and being good enough for Oxf economics were very thought-provoking.

Dd is definitely “good enough” from a maths ability point of view. She could absolutely do a maths degree if she didn’t love history even more.
Does she live and breathe economics in the way she does with both history and English lit? - I think that would have to be no, at this stage at least.

So maybe we are actually looking at a straight history degree as the plan.

If she's planning on a History degree or PPE, I'd definitely say EPQ. For someone who relishes the subject, it's really little extra work and actually a great opportunity to formalise some research and wider reading they might have had to do anyway for Oxbridge entry. DD2 in Year 12 has completed hers this week, ready to submit next week.She loved the research and it has completely opened up an area of English to her that she had no opportunity to study as part of her A level. She has referenced nearly 50 different sources in the report. DD1, second year at university, also did 3 A levels and an EPQ and said the referencing skills have been invaluable. They've both done English and History at A Level and as far as I know they didn't find the NEAs + EPQ too much. History NEA was quite full on though for DD1. DD2 will start that soon.

DD found her geography NEA very full on. She needed to learn referencing skills for this, so I don't understand why referencing for an EPQ would be any different. She started with 4 A level subjects though, and doing an EPQ as well would have been too much.

She was diagnosed with CFS halfway through year 12 and, as she was finding the workload for 4 A level subjects too much, she dropped a subject after bagging an A at AS level.

If she’s a strong mathematician, then Further Maths. If she decides on an Economics joint honours course it will really make her application more competitive. It’s an impressive A Level to have in any case.

history, eng lit and Spoanish is a much better combination in my view.
Or team history and english lit with classical civilisation or economics or music or RE etc

However if she might do maths or economics at university then maths, economics, futher maths and perhaps geography and a science might be good.

I did a law degree and did english lit, history and german. I have a lawyer child who did engiish lit, history and classical civilisation. My twins who are lawyers did history, geography and one economics (and music AS) and the other classical civilisation (and economics AS). They decided not to do an EPQ. I quite liked it that in their day 2017 you did 4 AS levels in lower sixth. I don't think most schools now do that.

Also bear in mind that, for Oxford anyway, a history joint degree is more competitive to get in for than straight history.

If it was my kid, I’d probably recommend Spanish rather than FM, given that she doesn’t want to study maths at uni (although my own DD, in a similar situation, insisted on taking chemistry rather than German and hasn’t ever regretted it!).

In any case, if she’s only planning to take the subject for year 12 then drop it, it doesn’t really matter all that much which she picks.

I quite liked it that in their day 2017 you did 4 AS levels in lower sixth. I don't think most schools now do that.

I think 2017 was the last year that schools in England sat AS levels. DD sat four AS levels in 2017 then dropped down to three subjects. It was a good move for her as she went up a grade in two subjects.

@TheBlackCatWithTheWhiteSpot
What about History and Spanish at university? There might be fewer places available at Oxford for joint honours but other unis love MFL students!

My twins got the top AS grade in all 4 subjects and I think that helped with university application as that was better than their GCSEs, which were not too bad at all but not straight highest grades.

As someone else has said, don't rule out the EPQ. DD did three essay subjects, two of which had NEA elements but they were tiny compared to the EPQ. You also mention your YP is thinking of Oxford, DD was asked about her EPQ in her interview for Cambridge and was something that helped her demonstrate the passion for her subject. She did most of her the EPQ work in the summer holidays between Y12 and Y13 so didn't really impact her other A levels and so was flexible in that way.

Agree, my dc also did the work for the EPQ in the summer hols.

It gives something to talk about in interviews and demonstrates wider reading/research beyond the A level syllabus .

I wouldn’t do FM unless she is considering a maths related degree. It’s hard. Even kids that get 9s at GCSE can be shocked by the difficulty. If her passion is with History then it seems an odd choice.

EPQ in something she is passionate about and can therefore discuss at interview would seem the obvious choice

A friend's DD did A level history, English lit and Spanish. She applied to do English at Oxford but was offered a place on their Spanish course instead.
Easier to get a place on MFL than other subjects.