A Level Choices

[TheBlackCatWithTheWhiteSpot]

Dd is having a bit of a wobble with A Level choices.

She has picked 3 - history, eng lit and maths.

School make them do either EPQ, core maths or another A or AS in Y12.

Obviously can’t do core maths as doing A level. EPQ seems unnecessary when she is doing 2 NEA subjects anyway.
So thinking of either Further Maths AS/full A level or Spanish AS.

She wants to do a history degree, hoping to apply to Oxford.
She is quite pragmatic, so is considering history and economics joint honours for potentially increased employability - but I would have thought maths A level sufficient for that.

Pros for Further maths are she is good at it and enjoys it, would keep the door open for a maths degree, probably won’t feel like that much extra work as she is already doing maths A level. Not sure whether just to do AS or to go for full A level.

Cons - it is a lot of maths given she is unlikely to want to do a maths degree, maybe it is not that “broad and balanced”- school are obsessed with breadth and balance.

Pros for Spanish - another lang is useful for history and reading sources in original language. She enjoys it and is good at it. It is a bit different to other choices - maybe complements well?

Cons - doesn’t really keep any extra doors open at this stage. Everyone she has spoken to says it is easier to get an A/A star at further maths than MFL (don’t know how true this is tho).

What would you advise? I think they are both good options TBH, but Dd wants to make a decision so she can stop thinking about it!

It sounds to me that the geography NEA is nothing like the history and Engish Lit NEAs and more like an EPQ (DD had to include her methods for this).

I don't think EPQs were much of a "thing" when DD was at school (she left 6 years ago). There seems to be much more importance attached to them these days (well, on MN anyway)

My son did the geography NEA and an EPQ. The NEA was quite involved but the EPQ was more work, although you can pick a topic you're interested in (but it can't overlap with your A level syllabus) and have the freedom to take it in whatever direction you fancy.

Some people produce artefacts rather than written reports (though I suspect they're in the minority). But I'd agree with PPs that you've got to be up for it and well organised.

The Geog NEA is 20% of the total A level and an NEA, as PP have said, is equivalent to 50%, so what you say, blue, in relation to relative effort makes sense and, of course, the NEA is subject-bound and not free-ranging, though both of mine went to town on the statistical analysis and so combined their Maths/FM with the Geog; I'm sure it is possible to be creative with other subject combos too eg Psychology and 'mental maps', Chemistry and water quality.

That sounds fun (I'm an ex geographer so love to hear that I'm not the only one that loved fieldwork!). My son went to town on the questionnaires and was still wandering around Shoreditch at 9pm (and went back for another day) when the rest of the class went home at 3 (quite wisely given not all residents are terribly keen on being a level geography fodder).

Though he managed to swing full marks for his NEA and his overall mark was on the A star grade boundary so he was a bit fortunate really.

DD was the first cohort to do the new geography syllabus, and the school was nervous about the students being marked down by the moderators, so they marked quite harshly. DD achieved the top marks in her year for her NEA, but not full marks.

Geographer here too! Returning OP's situation, I am sure there is scope to inject stats into a History NEA; would make it stand out from the crowd and something to talk about in a PS (or future equivalent) and/or interview. I did a module on Economic History in an early modern period as part of my degree and that had a nice injection of stats in it.

To be honest, I don't think any geography NEA should be given full marks. You can't do perfect fieldwork and a report.

My impression, from seeing both my children start an EPQ and their cousin do extremely well in one, is that they can be extremely useful for non-science subjects or if targetted to an interest relevant to likely university course choice. But how the school actually runs/supervises the EPQ is nearly as important as how a student gets on with the task.

If your school has a track record of students doing well in EPQ, getting good results, feeling supported, and not overwhelmed by the process required and their chosen timetable to submission, then it would be well worth looking into it more carefully. If it's a bit more "or you can have a go at an EPQ" then your daughter's thoughts on FM or Spanish sound spot on. And good luck to her whatever she does!

Our experience - my eldest, more or less compulsory EPQ, same subjects as your DD, looked to do something between history and English as she was considering joint honours (settled on English in the end). We thought she had the year to do it. Well down the line I discovered her school were wanting it all completed by Easter of yr 12 - which wasn't enough time for her to do it justice, partly because it took her too long in first term to settle on her topic and get going. Had I understood the timescale I'd have pushed her to think a lot more about topics over the summer before so she could hit the ground running. She ended up with an A.

Their cousin completed GCSEs in 2020, and her school basically said, why don't you start looking at EPQs, I think she made a start over the summer and prioritised it early in yr 11. Nevertheless it wasn't submitted particularly early. She did a good job of all the planning / recording stuff and her A* project may well have helped her (psychology) applications stand out.

The following year my youngest was at a school that had newly made the EPQ near compulsory, but didn't yet have much experience running it. He was aiming for maths, struggled to settle on an EPQ topic, learned loads but kept saying it wasn't suitable for him to write anything up. An artefact (eg computer programme) might have worked better I think. Eventually agreement was reached that he would hand something in at school but it didn't have to be submitted. And then he got on with his STEP preparation! I think the next year group weren't required to do EPQ if they were doing 4 or more A levels ...

they do all the ordinary maths syllabus in Y12, then do FM in y13.
From that set-up there seems to be no advantage to AS FM unless she intends to do the full A level.
Do Spanish history and literature appeal to her? In which case the non language AS modules could provide some interesting breadth and additional avenues of reading to complement her History and English A levels.

At our sixth form those going essay subjects are strongly encouraged to produce an artefact rather than write a dissertation. Not everyone stuck to that and done artefacts are basically things like a cookbook/cookery blog and closer to writing a dissertation than others. Some projects got vetoed by the person in overall charge of the EPQ programme. EPQ is compulsory there

This thread has been so helpful!
We hadn’t really considered all the factors around the EPQ, and how much support is provided.
Dd is quite drawn to the idea of an artefact EPQ (a film or photography portfolio), but is cautious about ending up spending her summer doing it, as she wants to earn as much as she can during that period.

One thing that has been affecting Dd a lot (which I didn’t realise before) is comparing herself to her older cousins, who are doing more “mathsy” subjects. One cousin is in y12 doing maths, fm and comp sci, planning a computer science degree. Other is 1st yr uni doing geography after A levels in geog, maths and economics. It’s true that both sides of the family have been surprised/taken aback that Dd wants to do humanities (Dd would use the word “judgmental”), as she has always been very good at maths and science. It turns out that’s why Dd initially decided she wanted to do joint honours with economics.

So I think she is feeling a bit of a weight of expectations, and that her choices are being viewed as lesser, but worrying the family are maybe right. She says if everything was completely neutral, she would choose Spanish AS.

TheBlack, in our family of lawyers humanities rule okay and can end up having higher pay than stem people often earn. So perhaps her humanities choice is head and shoulders above the stem maths crowd in the family. I am a bit biased as am a lawyer with 4 solicitor children.
Spanish AS sounds good. She wants to do history at Oxbridge - loads of Oxbridge historians go into law after by the way although it is best to plan for that in advance as law firms recruit year in advance.

If she’s going to Oxford, the EPQ will be really valuable in terms of research skills, independent study, and critical thinking. In contrast to the tick-box approach of A level, EPQ gives the opportunity to read around the subject and to come up with one’s own ideas.
I teach English literature in a Russell Group university and find that many students are very uncomfortable with the idea that there isn’t a ‘right answer’.

In our family of lawyers humanities rule okay and can end up having higher pay than stem people often earn

Same in my circle, those with humanities subjects have ended up in investment banking, partners at big four accountancy firms and board members of FTSE 100 companies.

I would go with what she enjoys though also keeping options open where possible as once you start A levels you can also change your mind too. But I think if you do A levels you enjoy, a degree you enjoy then find a job you enjoy life is much more enjoyable. This has always been my approach and one I encouraged my daughter to take. Some subjects your daughter may not have even tried yet, my daughter changed her mind several times before becoming set on economics.

My DD has an offer from Oxford and worked all the summer as well as at weekends and that was really good for her, both in experience, socialising and money. She will read Economics and Management and just has the 3 A levels without FM, for the joint degrees with Economics you don't especially need FM. For Economics on its own then having FM is better but she got offers from without FM or Economics A levels for pure economics at other universities. She started FM but dropped it as didn't enjoy it that much and Oxford offers are based on 3 A levels. She didn't do her EPQ, she didn't think would add anything for her - she has other topics can discuss at interview and already had the skills in it. The other thing to bear in mind is the entrance test and making sure you can do well enough in it to get an interview, lots with 4 A stars fell at that hurdle for E&M as only 18% were interviewed.

She has picked a great mix OP and I would agree with posters saying go with what she enjoys, as she still has time to change her mind before her Oxford application.

My DD did Eng Lit, Ancient History and Spanish A levels, with a choice of EPQ or certain subject AS levels (studied over 2 years); most of the cohort did EPQ. She added Maths AS, as 4 A levels were not really supported unless 4th was FM. The Maths was challenging as she wasn't an innate mathematician (she got 9 in GCSE but it was CAG times), though this was mainly due to only 2 hours of teaching per week compared to the 9 sets of A level Maths/FM with full timetabling. She spent a disproportionate time in achieving her A in AS vs all of the other 3 subjects put together, as her AS Maths group declined from 12 to 3 students. Every few weeks she was asked if she was ready to pack it in due to low grade prediction like it was some Survivor type game show. She couldn't drop it as she was applying to the Irish system which relies on points to be competitive with their education system.

I know an AS is classed as a half A level but make sure your DD checks there is sufficient teaching time across her timetable for whatever she picks. Spanish becomes so much more interesting at A/AS vs GCSE due to the wider aspects so she should go for it if she enjoys and finds it easy.I am biased, I have a DD who loves it.

Your relatives' comments I can empathise with. Over time hopefully, your DD be more confident with her choices and be better equipped to combat the negative feedback. The recruitment pool is competitive, but well developed skills compete against each other, no matter what discipline they're applying from.

Anecdotally my DD is entering her Y3 of 4 years multidisciplinary languages study and has secured a consulting business tech based internship for 2025, where, at the insight week, many of the partners not only valued humanities prospects, had come from similar disciplines themselves. Retaining the Maths helped her in the initial psychometric process, something often overlooked by pure humanities students so the AS has paid off for her in that respect.

These are the three a levels I did and I did a history degree.

it is a good combination , she should go for it.

I would say maths is more useful to Spanish as an a level and will keep more doors open (not saying Spanish isn’t good)

OP’s DD is already doing maths. The Spanish would be in addition.

The poster that I quoted was suggesting to do history, English lit and Spanish so I presume she was saying to do Spanish rather than Maths

DS2 is doing exactly the same A levels as yours and loves it and is also constantly doing homework. He also wants to go to Cambridge. DS1 also did those A levels and is now studying Maths at Durham. Good luck to your son.

I think for maths dc who just want maths or a branch of it, it’s an easy choice to to do Maths x2 and CS. Hopefully they can write well too. Cambridge however don’t mention CS in their list of best subjects for their maths courses and say the majority have Physics or Chemistry. Subject listed below.

@TheBlackCatWithTheWhiteSpot I would try and avoid DD being compared to other members of your family. She doesn’t have to be like them and indeed isn’t them. She has other strengths and subjects she might enjoy and, naturally bright people and engaging people who want an interesting career, usually figure out how to get it. The world of work does not just belong to scientists.