A Level Choices

[TheBlackCatWithTheWhiteSpot]

Dd is having a bit of a wobble with A Level choices.

She has picked 3 - history, eng lit and maths.

School make them do either EPQ, core maths or another A or AS in Y12.

Obviously can’t do core maths as doing A level. EPQ seems unnecessary when she is doing 2 NEA subjects anyway.
So thinking of either Further Maths AS/full A level or Spanish AS.

She wants to do a history degree, hoping to apply to Oxford.
She is quite pragmatic, so is considering history and economics joint honours for potentially increased employability - but I would have thought maths A level sufficient for that.

Pros for Further maths are she is good at it and enjoys it, would keep the door open for a maths degree, probably won’t feel like that much extra work as she is already doing maths A level. Not sure whether just to do AS or to go for full A level.

Cons - it is a lot of maths given she is unlikely to want to do a maths degree, maybe it is not that “broad and balanced”- school are obsessed with breadth and balance.

Pros for Spanish - another lang is useful for history and reading sources in original language. She enjoys it and is good at it. It is a bit different to other choices - maybe complements well?

Cons - doesn’t really keep any extra doors open at this stage. Everyone she has spoken to says it is easier to get an A/A star at further maths than MFL (don’t know how true this is tho).

What would you advise? I think they are both good options TBH, but Dd wants to make a decision so she can stop thinking about it!

As you have to do aptitude tests for MFL I don’t think that’s entirely correct. Even when DD applied in 2010, this was the case. Definitely it’s MLAT now and dc register in advance. Plus the PS is often used for an interview opener. If it’s written for English, how would that help with a MFL application?

Everyone she has spoken to says it is easier to get an A/A star at further maths than MFL (don’t know how true this is tho).

I need to comment on this. Obviously it depends where your strengths lie, but objectively this isn't true! A level FM is pretty much universally regarded as the hardest a level. Now obviously a very gifted mathematician who struggles with GCSE Spanish will find it a walk in the park compared to Spanish Alevel, just as most Spanish native speakers would find Spanish A level a walk in the park compared to FM A level. But for someone who is equally competent at both Spanish and maths, FM is harder.

EPQ is compulsory at our sixth form college even if you do 4 A levels. There are 1200 students in the year and about 300 + didn’t complete it. So that’s a U on your marks list.

Needing to complete most of it or a lot of it over the summer is a right pain as is financial commitments to produce the artefact

Around 20% more get A/Astar at FM than Spanish. This suggests the students do not find it harder! Around 55% get A/A star for FM. If you can do this subject, you have a greater chance of high grades. Almost double the numbers take FM (15000 plus) so these pupils think they can achieve well by doing it. 97,000 took maths.

Around 20% more get A/Astar at FM than Spanish. This suggests the students do not find it harder!

No, it suggests that students who enjoy maths or are talented at maths take the subject. Those that aren't don't do it.

Well yes. Thats obvious. However once that decision has been made, and it’s around 1/6 of mathematicians, they do get higher grades than Spanish A level students who don’t have an extension A level. It could be the highest achievers could do that too but we don’t know. That doesn’t mean FM is more difficult for those who take it. For them, the A level might be too easy! The results say something else that’s maybe specific about mathematicians and no one else but they are self selecting from a very big cohort.

Where I am you need a 9 at maths GCSE to do FM, and a 6 to do Spanish. I've done a spot check and everywhere I've seen requires at least 2 GCSE grades higher to do FM than Spanish. Pretty much speaks for itself on how relatively hard the A levels are considered.

It's not that more people gets As because it's easier, it's because schools require you to be better at maths to to FM A level than they require you to be at Spanish A level. That then impacts the results.

FM was the only one of my A levels where I was concerned that I didn't have enough ability for the subject to get a top grade, no matter how hard I worked. And I'm very strong at maths. I'd have my kids think seriously if they wanted to take it and weren't walking a 9 at GCSE. Not because of the eventual grade not being A/A*, but because it can be demotivating to realise you've reached your academic limit in a subject.

FM is typically taken as a fourth A level and so the drop out rate at the start and end of Y12 is probably higher than for many other subjects where you need to soldier on with your three A levels come what may; this will also have an effect on appearing to boost the FM Astars relative to other subjects.

Tizer's point still stands, which is play to your strengths and let the rest take care of itself.

Just to return to the utility of FM, as a parent of DC who took FM but did not use it to open particular uni doors, I would say how surprised I was at how it genuinely supported by DC's logical thinking and structure in extended answer questions in other subjects (and so boosted marks and grades) and how, for one DC in the world of work, it has definitely helped facilitate their inclusion on some pretty interesting and career-boosting digital projects despite having a core role that is not focused on digital per se. So FM is not just 'more maths really only for people who want to do maths, physics, economics or engineering at certain universities'.

My younger son is doing further maths and finds it ok but as others have said, it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy as A level maths is hard so only the able tend to take it.

Another vote for an EPQ. My older son did it and I'm convinced it was the main factor behind him getting five offers as it showed a wider interest in his subject (and it wasn't one where you could really get work experience).

But you need to be organised and get it finished by the summer of the lower sixth. He was at a selective private school with a fairly motivated cohort and very few pupils finished it. Also worth saying that the journey log (or whatever it's called) is as, if not more, important than the quality of the finished work so you need to play the game on the various steps of that.

@blue345 It’s difficult to say maths is hard when it has the most entries of any A level. 91,000 last year. So many dc don’t find it that hard. They find MFLs harder hiding by top grades awarded!

“Judging!!”

@blue345 makes good points about EPQs - do it prior to Y13, understand the mark scheme etc. At my DCs' comp, many were finishing EPQs well into the autumn of Y13, with inevitable 'piling up' effects.

I note many say summer between Y12 and Y13 is key and, whilst you can squeeze most things into a pint pot of time if you try, not all DC have decent amounts of free time over the summer period; multiple shifts of paid work to build up savings, work experience weeks, uni online and residential courses may all feature and deserve time too.

By contrast, an additional AS or A level may be less likely to compete over the summer months in the way that it appears an EPQ might. I am not knocking EPQs, but it is interesting that the real pros and cons of different options is not necessarily obvious on the surface, which makes threads like this one interesting and useful.

@TizerorFizz Maths and further maths are not the same thing! 15,000 entries for FM (the vast majority of whom, I would venture, would have had an 8 or 9 at GCSE).

It’s difficult to say maths is hard when it has the most entries of any A level. 91,000 last year. So many dc don’t find it that hard. They find MFLs harder hiding by top grades awarded!

I'm mainly speaking from personal experience. I did four A levels, I'm a chartered accountant and I work in investing which is heavily numerical but maths A level was bloody hard( and harder than my accountancy exams which weren’t a walk in the park either).

I also know a number of very able mathematicians at our school that didn't end up at their chosen unis (Imperial etc) because they didn't get the necessary A star for maths (or the grade for the Cambridge STEP maths exam despite getting four A stars). And other pupils that have massively struggled despite getting 9s at GCSE. MFL are tough ones too.

The thing about maths is that you can work as hard as you like but if you don't 'get' it, you simply can't answer some questions. Whereas for subjects like economics, geography, English and politics, you can always write an essay (it may not be a good one but you can have a stab).

I do realise FM and maths aren’t the same thing but how many take FM as a stand alone maths exam? Virtually no one I would suggest.

As schools often see FM as a 4th A level, of course they limit who should do it. I suspect if you limited Spanish to grade 9 GCSE only, you would see different results at A level.

Imperial is ludicrously competitive with very many overseas students. Of course lots of able DC don’t get in. As they don’t for maths at Cambridge. As vast numbers have these top grades, are you surprised? Same with top economics courses. Much smaller numbers have top grades in MFLs of course their success rate at top unis is higher and possibly fewer overseas students on the courses too.

Our school insists on these extras, yet they don't have the staff or the time to be supportive of them. Most agonise over the choice and then end up stressed and dropping them later.

Our school insists on these extras, yet they don't have the staff or the time to be supportive of them. Most agonise over the choice and then end up stressed and dropping them later.

If she’s aiming at history at Oxford I would suggest a history based EPQ would stand her in good stead. Maybe one on Spanish history?

But op’s DD has already picked two subjects with major coursework components, so a history-based EPQ is not really giving her anything extra.

For what it’s worth, my DD has an offer for history from Oxford without doing an EPQ (or indeed any essay competitions, super-curriculars worth the mention, relevant work experience, a list of books she’s read as long as her arm, or any of the other things the careers advisor at her school said was necessary for a credible application). I get that she’s a statistical sample of 1, but I do feel that the hoops some schools get the kids to jump through serve little purpose other than to increase their stress levels.

Imperial is ludicrously competitive with very many overseas students. Of course lots of able DC don’t get in. As they don’t for maths at Cambridge. As vast numbers have these top grades, are you surprised?

Yes, everyone knows Imperial is highly competitive. The pupil in question retook his A level maths the next year as he really wanted to study design type engineering at Imperial. He got an A again (and lower raw marks than the previous year) but ironically got in with an A not an A star as not enough students with offers got their A star in maths. So not vast numbers for that course last year.

I know another boy studying medicine at Oxford, also highly academic but found getting an A star in maths the most challenging of all his sciences (there were some tricky maths papers in that year).

My point remains that maths is one of the hardest A levels, irrespective of the grade boundaries. Honestly, I worked far harder for my B in maths than my As in economics, geography and english (back in the prehistoric pre A star era). Having chatted to a lot of my son's friends (who had 9s in maths and 8s and 9s in their other subjects), maths is still considered one of the more challenging A levels to take.

If people find it easy, they have my complete respect.

But op’s DD has already picked two subjects with major coursework components, so a history-based EPQ is not really giving her anything extra.

EPQ and NEA cannot be compared. The NEA in DD’s English Lit for example and for history was each a relatively short essay with no referencing, research etc and was confined to narrow topics. Each was worth 20% of her final mark.

An EPQ can be done on something the YP is passionate about and is ideal to demonstrate a unique combo of subjects, someone for example has suggested Spanish History which sounds like a fantastic idea and concept. It is extensive and on its own is the equivalent to half an A level. The planning and recording of the reading and research are just as big an element as the essay itself and is a good launchpad to demonstrate ability for degree level studies.

The NEA in DD’s English Lit for example and for history was each a relatively short essay with no referencing, research etc and was confined to narrow topics

@PettsWoodParadise Whereas DD's geography NEA was a 6,000 word mini dissertation. It involved research, evaluating her findings and writing a report, complete with full referencing, and a proper conclusion. This was for the new geography A level syllabus whcih started in 2016. She sat her A levels in 2018. The experience of writing this was very useful when DD started at university.

I think we are comparing apples with pears here.

I did Further Maths and it was helpful to get a place at LSE.

My dd did EPQ in a subject that she studied at A-level but wasn’t covered in the syllabus. She later studied that subject at university and I think EPQ helped her tolerate the topics that she wasn’t quite so keen on.

I would be nervous picking MFL as that seems to be the subject with the biggest teacher shortages. I know that chances are it will be fine as it’s just one year but something to consider. Does Spanish tie in with the period of history that interest her ? Would living abroad in a Spanish speaking country interest her ?

I would echo @RampantIvy's general comments about the Geography NEA under the reformed syllabus, which typically includes field research, statistical analysis as well as the academic report structure, referencing etc you would expect within an EPQ. Obviously OP's DD is looking to do the History and English NEAs and these may or may not require the same depth of approach under the reformed syllabus.

Well I can only speak to my kids’ experience. DD3’s history coursework was 4,500 words while DD1’s EPQ was 5,000 words. The main difference was DD1 had to include a section on her methods and which bits she found easy/hard etc, which frankly is makework. Of course the EPQ doesn’t have to be a dissertation-style thing, but in practice that is what most of the kids produce.

It doesn’t sound as though op’s DD is particularly interested in doing an EPQ, which doesn’t suggest there’s a topic she’s burning to research, in which case I think she’d get more out of doing something else.