Law degree - Oxford or Cambridge?

[Grayswoodgirl]

My daughter is in year 12 and studying history, politics and French. Set to be predicted two A-stars and an A. She knows she wants to be a barrister (and how very competitive it is) so she must am high. She is minded to apply to either Oxford or Cambridge plus Durham, Bristol, Nottingham and one other (Exeter? Warwick?). Any insight as to the law degrees at any of those please? Also do you need to prepare for the LNAT or just turn up?

PS. She likes all of her A-levels but doesn’t love them enough to study at uni and then convert to law after graduating - hence why she thinks she’ll do a law degree straight off

There was another one!

Stale advice from teachers who probably know nothing about law or the degree or the profession and who don't need to suck up the costs. My advice would be to tell your DS to ignore it completely and to plough his own furrow. Where a student really wants to study something other than Law at uni and comes from a financial background to afford the luxury, fine. But your DS seems clear that he wants to apply for Law - so the teachers' advice is supremely shallow.

I agree with Karolinska from the solicitor side of things too. 50% of future trainee solicitors in large firms do law first. It really does not matter too much either way. I still today use aspects of the topics I was taught in my 3 year LLB and obviously you cover much more law than you do on a one year law conversion. However my solicitor children did the law conversion and they are fine too. My first post above was about the financial issue and having to do the extra year. Also in my own case I wanted to get on with life so did not want to spin out the studying years. Other teenagers have different views on that and would love to have a gap year, a 4 year degree, a law conversion after etc.

For the poster's child here who wants to try for law (rather than some obscure subject at Oxbridge hardly anyone wants to do which could make it much easier to get in) I would say go for law. It is not essential to go to Oxbridge for the bar although does help and the solicitor option remains open too. If it is an Oxbridge failure as it is for most who apply that's fine as the second choice etc is likely to be a very good university where lots of LLB students go on to good things.

MFL obscure? Since when? Lots of great barristers did Classics too. It is possible to have varied interests in life.

That is absolutely not stale advice. Law is extremely competitive and languages somewhat less so. Of my university friends who have taken silk, many didn’t read law (many who studied law from the outset chose the city in the end, but not all).
But if she thinks she wants to read Law, then makes sense to start now as it saves time and money doing conversions (while grants are available they rarely cover all the living costs). It does not matter which of O or C to apply for. I’d advise doing open days to help decide. It’s not worth combing through barristers CVs to see which one is more represented. Both are highly respected.

sellingpetrol it's not stale only in the narrow sense that the offer:application ratio continues to be much better for MFL. It is very stale in that it's the same old lazy advice from teachers who are likely to be looking solely at that one fact and not taking any of the wider picture into account. A lot of teachers are culpable of giving shit advice to applicants aiming for Oxbridge. It's too often advice just doled out by rote. (Obviously some teachers are excellent at this stuff etc etc).

Bright dc don't just listen to teachers though. They have the brains to think about options. It's not accurate to think MFL, History or other grads haven't given it some thought. Not everyone wants three years of law at uni. They get a lifetime of it afterwards if they want it!

Well of course Tizer. But that’s irrelevant to whether or not the teachers of this DS are just churning out unimaginative advice by rote.

They could well have no idea. They could think his MFL is stronger. We don't know. It would also depend whether he wanted 2 MFLs and what A levels he's studying. I forget. Nothing wrong with discussing options but if DS is clear about his preference, he should go with that.

Tizer the DS is only doing a single languages A level and Spanish at that. That's not a golden ticket to Oxbridge for MFL. My response was shaped by the fact that the teachers seem to have made the easier ride into Oxbridge the main plank of their argument. It's something done over and over again and is bad advice - terrible advice for a student who actively wants to read Law and only has one (and the softest) language A level to offer.

Bristol as a city has general accommodation issues, that is the main problem. There's so many young people moving in due to the numbers of stem jobs principally aerospace and marine engineering that have deeper pockets than students. The university happens to be in a more affluent area too, cue expensive accommodation issues. Students willing to live a bit further away in year 2&3 won't have too many issues, I'm 25 mins from the university by car and it's much cheaper.

It is a bit of a difficult issue - whether to pick a unviersity because rentals are cheap or whether people then put themselves with a group of other students with not much money going after lower paid job - in a sense do you spend spend spend on university rent in order to improve future life prospects? However the cheapest option is often Oxbridge as you can live in all 3 years and only rent in term time so in a sense IF you are one of the rare people who get in Oxbridge is good choice.

On "obscure subjects" I was about to suggest oriental studies but see classics remains a good one with more choice of getting in if this is correct https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/what-are-the-easiest-and-hardest-subjects-to-get-in-for-at-oxbridge/

In this particular case I think doing a law degree sounds like the right advice with one of Oxford or Cambridge at top of list and another good one as back up
and keeping an open mind as to whether will be a solicitor or barrister at this very early stage. You can also at university apply for pupillages and training contracts and see how you go with both.

Xenia a massive health warning needs to be issued about Oxford Royale and their eye wateringly expensive summer schools which are not endorsed by Oxford.

Also, the surface of these admissions statistics needs to be scratched.

Classics is skewed because so few schools offer Classical languages any more and are notoriously difficult A levels. It's the level of competition you need to assess rather than numbers applying. Music is similar. Lots of students might think they can try for one of the chattier subjects but the collective quality will be lower. Same with Chemistry. No doubt the quality of those who get offers across all subjects is broadly similar but some subjects don't need to be sifted as much because fewer applicants can apply (I'm aware that students don't now need Classical languages to apply before I'm picked up on that but there are not many with the language ability to master a Classical language in a year from scratch, not least because languages have been in the doldrums for very many years in the state sector. (The ab initio course is aimed almost exclusively at the state sector, not for those from independents who chose not to take a Classical language on offer because they though it too hard. You'd need a very good reason indeed as an independent school applicant to justify why you didn't take the A level/s at school).

It's comparable to the old question about why are the grades so much higher for single science Physics as opposed to the double award? (several other similar examples here including Classical languages). Is it because single science Physics is easier? Or is it to do with the ability of the cohort sitting that exam as opposed to the double award?

@Stringbean70 my daughter is keen to be a barrister - she's at O reading Modern Languages - but she has always wanted to study languages so that was what she applied for and is loving the course. She has though been excluded from Moot competitions as they are only for law students. The stats are very clear - modern language offer rate was 44% in 2022 and 11% for law. That is not though a reason to apply for MFL.

If @Grayswoodgirl DD wants to read Law then she should apply for law understanding she should have some back up choices she is really keen on too. As others have said barristers now come from a range of unis. It sounds as though she's very determined and is therefore likely to go far.

@Karolinska

It's unfortunately a big issue that state schools offer DC one MFL . They don't get a chance of two. Dc who are good at MFL don't get supported in many state schools. She could look at ab initio but I totally hear what you say, it's fairly clear that if dc wants law, they should try for it.

Bristol isn't the only expensive city! It's also a leading uni for law and barristers. I would never suggest cheap housing should compromise choice of uni because in law, it matters more than most careers. Where there's a will, there's a way! It should be looked at along with Durham as a possible.

@Juja
DD was excluded from certain law based activities as a MFL student too. However once they join an Inn of Court, they get more chances. Not doing them at uni, as 50% haven't, is not a deal-breaker. The most important thing is deciding which area of law and making sure her cv stands out for that and getting mini pupillages at target chambers. Hitting the deadlines matters!

Our state school struggled hugely to get decent quality MFL teachers too over the years Tizer. There were some but not enough and it was a cause for real celebration when the school managed to find a good one. They were rare beasts. Our state school did allow two MFL at A level but year after year not enough students signed up for German, so the class was uneconomical to run (and therefore didn't).

To be fair to the law students, it wouldn't be possible to include students reading other subjects in the moots. Unless you can read cases and have some understanding of the area of law being mooted, you can't really prepare a case. It's not a clubby thing but a practical thing. Some of these moots operate at quite a high level. Given that the excluded students will by definition have a conversion year, that's when they get their chance. Chambers will know that they haven't had the opportunity at uni.

@Karolinska

I would expect a grammar to facilitate 2 MFLs at GCSE but many comps do not. All my DNs have had to choose French or Spanish. They never got a chance to start the other one at all. So it's difficult for many dc. It's then a challenge to see how these dc can get to Oxford for MFL as they have never had a chance even if they were talented. They can of course add the MFL to another subject if what interests them is offered.

Well you would have thought Tizer. Things might be better now but it was striking just how little MFL were valued when my DC were at school. They went through a really fallow period, an incredibly poor relation to STEM. Seriously bad but I know our grammar wasn't alone.

My DD did law at Oxford , the pastoral care was poor . Out of 8 who started law in her college 3 sat finals in third year the rest rusticated / changed course/ dropped out
She's done really well since than - sink or swim kind of place

That could well be college specific Carriemac, I'm not convinced that it's a general issue. And things change within colleges too, as tutors retire or move on.

Obviously very tough if you happen to end up at a college with hard core tutors and have struggles though - not trying to minimise.

It was college specific but the support for dyslexia etc is far better in Cambridge from my experience

“Not doing them (moots etc) at uni, as 50% haven't, is not a deal-breaker.”

Where does this stat of 50% come from? It may be true of solicitors (ie. that half read another subject before GDL) but it is categorically not true of barristers nowadays - vast majority (I thought 70% overall, much higher in top sets) read law at uni? Can anyone access stats?

So many outdated ideas being peddled - if you know you want to be a barrister, read law unless v good reason not to! Deciding on another subject to game your Oxbridge chances is not necessary (Durham, Bristol law etc equally respected!) and can actually count against you for pupillage where many (particularly top sets) value longstanding commitment to law, the degree’s unique academic rigour and mooting experience etc

My DD is a Law fresher at Cambridge and also mentors Y12s interested in a law degree through Zero Gravity. Your daughter might find that platform useful. Mentoring is free. The mentors are volunteers.

For my DD, the choice between Cambridge and Oxford was simple. She was not keen on Jurisprudence and did not want to have all her exams in the third year. Interestingly, one of her school classmates, super bright and very high achieving girl, got into Oxford but switched to another degree after the first term. It might not have been what she was expecting.

Law at Oxbridge is not for the faint hearted. There's a lot of reading, twice weekly supervisions (or tutorials at Oxford) and the first term is quite challenging (until they learn how to study smart at least🤪).

The choice of College is also important. Some are more demanding than others for example- my DD had 3 essays in one week at some pointand weekly essays are the norm. Some have a better social life than others etc.

Hope this helps.

Couldn't agree more with this xenia. I am in a sc - the paralegals are often older now than i was at 2 years pqe on a great wage and owning my own flat. I think sqe is meant to help them get qualified but it is a mess in my opinion as the paralegals are often getting a v narrow exposure to training - and who wants to work in a law firm with all the long hours for years on rubbish money.
The salary is what makes the whole thing worthwhile!!