Law degree - Oxford or Cambridge?

[Grayswoodgirl]

My daughter is in year 12 and studying history, politics and French. Set to be predicted two A-stars and an A. She knows she wants to be a barrister (and how very competitive it is) so she must am high. She is minded to apply to either Oxford or Cambridge plus Durham, Bristol, Nottingham and one other (Exeter? Warwick?). Any insight as to the law degrees at any of those please? Also do you need to prepare for the LNAT or just turn up?

PS. She likes all of her A-levels but doesn’t love them enough to study at uni and then convert to law after graduating - hence why she thinks she’ll do a law degree straight off

What ends up mattering is what area of law and whether any of your fellow students actually want to be barristers. Many barristers don’t have a law degree at all. Oxbridge opens up possibilities but elsewhere isn’t going to be a negative but going it alone can be daunting for deadlines etc. LSE isn’t high on barrister recruitment lists. Your inn matters for scholarships and definitely networking but others manage well who aren’t lse it would appear.

@Karolinska Not sure how many barristers are Oxbridge now, but it used to be 40%. It’s a path that is well trodden. There’s clearly a pecking order but it’s clearly possible for others to shine. I think the key is being realistic in what you go for. You have to enjoy your area of law. You also need to earn money! So my original point of planning for the career matters. It’s not about being in a uni next to Lincolns In if they don’t give you the scholarship you need.

TizerorFizz are you replying to someone else and named me by mistake?

Of course anyone wanting to be a barrister needs to have a clear plan.

I assume your reference is to the comment about the LSE being next to the Inns of Court - not my comment!

I certainly agree that proximity to the Inns of Court gives no advantage whatsoever - why would it?

I also haven’t said anything about only Oxbridge students getting pupillage and tenancies so I’m a bit confused about that too.

That said, is/ was the 40% figure a figure for the whole of England and Wales or purely London? There’s a big skew in regional sets towards young people who are local or young people who went to uni in that area and I think the skew in London is still heavily in favour of Oxbridge. But of course plenty of very good applicants go to other unis and of course there’s room for those.

The Bristol bad press has mostly - understandably - been about student suicide but the accommodation problems due to expansion of student numbers have also been featured a lot, with too many students living miles out, having to do long commutes and feeling isolated.

@Karolinska It was just a comment following on from yours about Oxford firsts. Nothing else really.

No. Didn’t mean to link you to LSE. Separate musings on my part!

Yes, Bristol has a hall in Wales. Stupidly they have expanded too much but they have a generous social mobility programme too so not all bad. I suggest a timely application for accommodation helps. Insurance and clearing are an issue!

Ah I see. Well to be fair TizerorFizz, there’s no denying that an Oxbridge first helps secure a pupillage in a number of sets as I think it should. They’re no mean feat to achieve. I mentioned the grades only because it’s obviously logical that those with Oxbridge firsts are probably going to feature heavily in the group who secure more than one offer. All four were taken on by the sets they did pupillage at and between them they’ve got a number of rising star accolades between them - there’s obviously a pattern.

I think Bristol quite rightly does not do early accommodation applications for year 1 and lets everyone apply once they firm their first choice. Even a relative of ours who went to Bristol as back up choice by the way recently got first choice of hall so may be since Covid has died down Bristol accommodation issues are better.

If we go back to the first post all those university chosen would be fine and yes she should prepare for the LNAT. She might want to show interest in law eg I went to some courts in my home town when I was in the sixth form.

I don't think she should commit to solicitor or barrister just yet until she is perhaps in year 1 of her law degree in case she might change her mind.

I'm a current pupil barrister (mid-life career change). Lots of sets do blind recruitment where the university is obscured. I agree that having a first class degree is much more important than the university awarding it. I also think there's a lot of value in doing another degree and then the law conversion. The pupillage system is so competitive that you need to differentiate yourself somehow, and a bit of alternative work/life experience is very helpful in doing that. The year I secured pupillage there were approximately 250 places and 2500 applicants. A stellar set of results is not necessarily enough to get through the first sift.

@Xenia I didn’t say early. I said timely. It’s still an issue for insurance and clearing dc. Always was!

It’s also clear that firsts from Oxbridge are going to get you more choice at the bar than a first from (say) Gloucestershire . Not all sail through though and certainly I know some from Oxbridge who have done third six. Unfortunately fit isn’t always right and tenancies are competitive which pupils don’t always get told. However you can trade up! Or get cases you prefer: so moving can be great as DDs friend with a starred first from Cambridge found out. Always aim to be happy. Sometimes it’s difficult to judge when accepting pupillage. Movement between chambers is quite common now. Or waiting for several
years to get pupilage at all.

What percentage of London sets did blind recruitment for the law round of applications in 2023 RooRoo? You say lots. Also, the obscuring of the university is only relevant at the shortlisting stage, so it’s a fairly blunt tool.

It’s fairly clear that not all firsts are equal
and beyond that, as a previous poster said, when the final degree result depends on eight or nine exams all taken over a short two week span in the third year, with next to no assignments counting towards the final award - well, it demands quite a number of skills to pull off a first or a high upper second. Managing an exceptionally high level of stress not least among them.

Again, rather obviously, having succeeded in getting an Oxbridge degree at the upper end of the cohort doesn’t preclude those exact same students from possessing strong skills in other areas besides the academic. These things aren’t mutually exclusive and if you’re going to succeed at the Bar, especially in the more competitive areas, being very strong academically is necessary (although definitely not sufficient). So the fact that Oxbridge firsts are highly valued seems completely appropriate for those sets.

That’s in no way saying that there aren’t plenty of very bright young applicants from other universities who get pupillage then tenancy and do extremely well. But it is just a thing that the odds are still in your favour at the Bar (especially the more competitive areas) if you have had the benefit of an Oxbridge education. A glance at any of the top sets will show that, and it seems entirely legit - provided it’s not rigidly exclusive.

@RooRooCooChoo It’s still an Oxbridge dominated profession. RG takes up most pillage positions. Usually around 450 a year are offered. Career changers are the ones who are often different. They have built up a career and expertise elsewhere with another degree taken years ago. They are recruited based on expertise that obviously 23 year olds don’t have. DD is on pupilage shortlisting and interviews. Her set has obscured uni but every pupil is RG. They aren’t an Oxbridge set but other unis are vanishingly small. The first doesn’t matter so much but overall competence does.

Also, you do not need to be in a top set to make money and be happy. Who you work with, your clerk and ethos of set do matter.

I’m a barrister although following many years in chambers now work in a firm. All candidates nowadays have excellent academics. She needs to differentiate herself with work experience- anything law related. From now onwards. When recruiting trainees or pupils I want people who I know are genuinely committed to a career in law. Work experience helps me judge if they really are and if they understand what is involved. Good luck to her.

Also a sizeable scholarship from one of the Inns means you have impressed them.They don’t hand out circa £20,000 to applicants they don’t think are likely to succeed. I do agree about work experience but it should be relevant.

I’m interested in what sort of law work experience you think is both actually meaningful and accessible to an ordinary young person who lacks connections at the Bar? How would you advise securing the sort of work experience you’re referring to? I’m talking specifically about those aiming for the Bar.

All serious contenders for pupillage will have reasonable academics but a look across various London sets at the newer recruits - say over the past ten years - shows quite a distinct difference. Very clearly certain types of work and certain sets require super high academic achievements, a list of major scholarships and often cite wider achievements to boot.

TizerorFizz of course a you g person doesn’t need to be in a top set to make money and be happy and I assume that almost everyone would agree that being content is the main aim. Nevertheless the fact is that some chambers are way more competitive than others and attract the most interesting and high profile work and a lot of very bright and ambitious young people don’t think they’d be content settling for less. Nothing new in that. One can make the same argument about virtually everything in life.

Newyorkcity123 my question to you about work experience was based on the assumption that you didn’t simply mean mini pupillages.

Offbeat perspective. I'm a tutor in a different but not related subject at Oxford and at least once a year I see a law student either for an informal discussion or a formal interview to change subject. Occasionally I might see someone from another subject, but there's a more general desire to quit law. It seems to be a boring course with a very heavy workload. I've also seen so many of my own students (including two former lawyers!) go on to do the conversion course and become barristers that I would urge her to consider thinking about other possible courses beyond her A-level subjects.

A few thoughts from me, having studied undergrad Jurisprudence at Oxford and postgrad law at Cambridge, plus OH teaches law at Cambridge.

The cities are quite different university cities. So the university experience at each will be quite different. Ideally do an open day at both to see which your DD prefers. I loved Cambridge but I know some people who found it too small and boring.

In terms of probability of getting in, almost more important than the university (between those two) is which college she picks. They take different numbers of students and look for quite different things. Some are much better to apply to if you are state school / girl / none white etc than others.

As others say, the content taught (including the non-optional and the range of options) are very variable. And the exam systems are quite different. So have a look at those if she has a particular interest or exam preference.

If it's helpful my son is currently a offer holder from Cambridge for Law. If at all useful, important to know re LNAT dates. For Oxbridge UCAS it's October 15th, so you need to have taken the LNAT as soon as it opens - in DS case first couple of days in September. There was limited availability in our local test centre so as soon as booking open (had noted the date) he got his place- even so had to go at 8 am which was really inconvenient despite early booking. We bought the practice book and he did loads of practice over the summer on MCQ and essay plans. If you google FOI requests you can see the average LNAT score for different Cambridge colleges. Most successul candidates get high 20s early - mid 30s.

Cambridge are very transparent about the interview process - there are lots of example law interviews on youtube which pretty much mirrored son's experience, so do watch them. One interview was based on a legal problem, which he enjoyed as had been doing mooting competitions through Year 12 and 13 which prepared him well. The other pulled apart the personal statement - in his case around the political statement he had made - they came it at from lots of different angles and really challenged him, he came out slightly dazed!

We went to the Cambridge Open Day in September Year 13, which included a law talk in one of the colleges and visited around 6 colleges, with the clear favourite being the one he has the offer from. It was really helpful in making the transition "real". What surprised me was how few of the kids asked questions. I would encourage your DD to think through what she wants to understand about the approach. My son asked 2 questions in the law session and was thoroughly "roasted". I thought it might have put him off (it defin would have put me off) but he said he enjoyed it and wanted someone to argue with him - at this point I realised it was a good match for him!

During the summer of year 12 he watched cases in the local courtroom and shadowed some local barristers. He also takes part in the country police youth panel, which led to him being invited to the "stop and search scrutiny panel". Other relevant things that helped to build a picture of his commitment include Junior Law Commission (free and mostly online) and various debate teams (both in his state school and he signed up for the England Debate squad training). Unfortunately debate is still dominated by top public schools but there are opportunities to widen this out.

I definitely encouraged/supported him a lot on reflection but ultimately the drive came from him. It was more about showing him the options, and then helping to navigate through the process. I was probably too hands off re UCAS - I didn't look at anything then afterwards he realised he had forgotten to put his EPQ on which was a bit of a faff to sort out. His school were pretty hopeless, told him not to bother to apply initially so if your DD wants to go for it do support her.

CuriousGeorge80 the only caveat is that an applicant has far less agency over college choice with Oxford. There's the possibility of re-allocation before as well as after interview and even after that.

If it is helpful on choosing other universities, the challenge we found was that almost all of the higher ranked universities for law have the same offer - AAA. So there is a bit of a gamble where you have to decide whether you want to go for all high ranking ones in the more than likely scenario you don't get Oxbridge but possibly end up with nowhere if you blow your A levels. In the end he chose 3 at AAA and 1 at AAA. He got offers from all. What surprised me was despite a high LNAT score apart from Warwick (end of Dec) the offers came in very late (March/April). As you are waiting you don't know the LNAT score so we had thought his must not be great. Apparently not - it is more that the numbers applying for law are so high that unless you are contextual or international it is very late. Hope that helps!

Sorry 3 at A*AA

hopsalong different perspective again. I read Law but only because I lacked the languages required in those days to read Law. I would have ideally read History. Nothing about it bored me and I'm not clear that that's because I'm boring, though possibly. Masses of my peers loved both academic law and further along the line were hooked in by the real difference it makes to people both on an individual and collective level. So one's person's boring is another person's fascinating. I've always had an absurdly short attention span and could reel off a long list of things which would bore me to tears - but that wouldn't include the study of law. To be fair I think a number of students at Oxford take fright early on when presented with Roman Law. And just getting the hang of reading cases - initially that can appear very dry. I'm guessing they tend to come to you relatively early on? Some also take fright at the early exams at the end of the second term, when feet have barely touched the cobblestones - that can be daunting too.