Law degree - Oxford or Cambridge?

[Grayswoodgirl]

My daughter is in year 12 and studying history, politics and French. Set to be predicted two A-stars and an A. She knows she wants to be a barrister (and how very competitive it is) so she must am high. She is minded to apply to either Oxford or Cambridge plus Durham, Bristol, Nottingham and one other (Exeter? Warwick?). Any insight as to the law degrees at any of those please? Also do you need to prepare for the LNAT or just turn up?

PS. She likes all of her A-levels but doesn’t love them enough to study at uni and then convert to law after graduating - hence why she thinks she’ll do a law degree straight off

Hi, OP -

I am in STEM, but also a former Russell Group admissions tutor. As no one more knowledgeable has replied yet, I thought I would.

The Law Portal recommends beginning to prepare for the LNAT at least six to eight months ahead of your examination date. I suggest starting with the free preparation materials on the LNAT site itself and then figuring out what else you need.

I can’t help regarding the choice of law schools. I suggest DD join the online forum The Student Room to ask about O v C and any questions about her other choices as well. TSR members should also have many tips about the LNAT. Good luck to DD

Thank you for replying @poetryandwine ! I hadn’t heard of The Student Room so will get DD to sign up

I’m Cambridge and it’s a great faculty, I have close friends who teach in it

Does your daughter's school have an Oxbridge programme or does she have a UCAS tutor to guide her on this stuff?

Cambridge is regarded as being 'better' for Law than Oxford but so is UCL.

LNAT is really key and the dates you need to sit it vary by university with Oxbridge requiring you sit in October of Year 13 I think? Not all unis require LNAT though.

Good luck to your DD.

Both are good but have very different exams structures. Oxford is much more ‘big exams right at the end’. So it depends what she likes.

Cambridge is not regarded as better than Oxford OP. In terms of applying for pupillage both are regarded as equally strong, even though Oxford is generally ranked just ahead in university league tables. There’s nothing in it for practical purposes. Your DD should look at compulsory content at both unis and consider whether she’d prefer final exams to be split across two years or to sit them all in the summer of third year. If no strong feelings on these scores then apply to whichever uni she likes the feel of better.

The LNAT shouldn’t need a great deal of prep.

Thank you @Validus and @Karolinska. If you are right about degree structure, then definitely Cambridge. The idea of the entire degree being awarded on basis of year 3 exams is not one that appeals! Is that the case for all Oxford degrees or just law?

Not sure about current qualification to be a barrister but they certainly were all at the end when DD did them. So not all course structures will be what you want. DD has barrister friends from these unis. None closes off the career. It’s also about fit with Chambers and area of law chosen. No one is a criminal barrister if they want to make money.

Pretty standard for Oxford to base the degree award mainly on the final year’s exams. There will likely be some (often) small element of coursework, but usually no exams in 2nd year.

Grayswoodgirl Oxford is pretty much all divided between sciences and arts/ social sciences as far as the exams go. So, all on final exams for the latter and second year exams included in the tally for the former.

The only thing I would say is that the DC of mine who read Law at Oxford say that there is real merit in doing the exams all at the end in terms of subjects interacting and just general maturity and understanding of the discipline.

I am a solicitor (not barrister) with 4 solicitor children ( the last 2 qualified earlier this year). I really enjoyed my law degree (which was not Oxbridge). If your daughter goes on to some of the barristers' chambers where she might like to work and has a look at the most recently hired pupils or juniors on there as to their CVs and what they did and where they went she will find the types of universities where they went but your list looks good so far. (3 of my lawyer children went to Bristol and one Nottingham)

I think one of Oxford or Cambridge traditionally looks at GCSE grades more than the other and one may interview more candidates so perhaps choose on that basis.
Once she gets in she should make sure she looks at dates and chambers recruit well ahead (same for solicitors, where there are first year schemes, vac schemes and applications all during your degree, not after you finish ideally).

If the DD wants to secure a pupillage at one of the better London sets then she'll need a first to secure a range of interviews - or failing that a second degree. Given that she'll be reading Law, she should get involved with mooting as early as possible (much harder to get involved with that if not reading Law, obviously). It's also not a bad idea to do a vac scheme at a Magic Circle firm in order to articulate at pupillage interviews why exactly you don't have any interest in that side of the profession. Reading the CVs of some of the newest recruits at the top chambers can be sobering - try not to be put off early.

First things first: get the offer from Oxbridge. Once there, all the timelines about applications for both the Bar and for vac schemes etc are well publicized in the departments - the vast majority of Oxbridge lawyers are aiming at least initially to enter the profession. The top City firms also send their young associates up to host events at all the colleges. Not sure if this happens at Durham and Bristol still, but it probably does?

I would say definitely visit places before applying. I was put off some places for law based on the information I received on open days.

The first decision she will likely need to make is whether she wants to do "straight law" or whether she wants to do Law with French Law. Oxford has this as an option on the Jurisprudence course (not sure about Cambridge, but suspect it does on the Tripos for law also....). There are fewer places for the 4 year course, but certainly at Oxford they interview together and if they think you are worthy of a place but were edged out for the year abroad course by others they will still offer a straight law place. I know people who did the 4 year course with Y3 in France, and had an amazing time on the year in Paris. It gave them a bit of respite from the Oxford bubble and to digest everything from Y2 a bit better.

The Oxford course is exams all at the end. It is highly stressful, it is one of the worst experiences I've gone through - 9x 3 hour exams in 10 days is absolutely insane. But it is excellent preparation for the Bar, which is why a lot of Chambers look favourably on pupillage candidates who have gone through it and come out with a decent degree at the other end and haven't crumbled under the pressure - it's the ultimate work-memory-resilience-pressure test. I didn't enjoy it, but I haven't regretted it either. It's taken me a long time to get rose-tinted glasses about Oxford, but I am there now. I wouldn't change it, but if I had my time again I might have done a history degree and then the GDL to have a more chilled out university experience - the jurisprudence course is intense, and the lawyers work very hard compared to some other subjects, it is relentless and rigorous.

The other difference between the Oxford course and other courses is that the amount of choice is very limited. You only get a couple of elective subjects, and in additional to the normal qualifying law degree topics you end up studying random additional mandatory subjects - Roman Law, Jurisprudence, Public Law is split into Constitutional Law in Y1 and Administrative Law in Y2. If they are things she might enjoy, great. They aren't known for being the most useful subjects in actual legal practice - they are designed more to be about the jurisprudence, hence the course title - it's about the theory and academic study of law. I was told day 1 that "We aren't teaching you to slum it in the magistrates' court, we're preparing you to argue in the Court of Appeal", and that was fairly accurate to be honest!

In terms of the LNAT, assuming it's the same as when I did it, absolutely prepare. Understanding how the questions work and how to answer them is really important. But don't be put off by the practice papers either. I did terribly on many of the practice papers and was completely freaking out, and ended up with a really high LNAT score, and I'm sure it really was all the practice and learning to understand how the questions worked coming good on the day.

The Bar used to target Bristol but probably spread more widely now.

DD had one pupillage interview and nailed it. Never did a vac scheme. Did around 10 mini pupillages including one where she got pupillage. At Bar School hardly anyone got pupilage after degree. Many are a bit older. DD got hers after GDL.

A few did masters and DD has friends that did MLaw at Cambridge. It’s not necessary though. Many DD do lots of cv worthy things between Uni, Bar School and pupilage but whilst at an elite uni you do get into the swing of deadlines. Legal Cheek helps. Chambers Student is a must read too. DD hardly did any moots as she didn’t read law. However she got great advice on scholarships from the Inns of Court and her Bar School and also honed her skills for the area of law she wanted. It’s pretty vital to know this and not scattergun.

A few chambers recruit Oxbridge only but most don’t. They have different personalities though and fitting in is key.

TizerorFizz when I referred to trying to secure the maximum number of interviews that was assuming applications through The Pupillage Gateway. Perhaps your DD’s set used the direct application route. Even so, multiple interview offers in a cycle are usually preferable! Also the vac scheme point is only really a thing for commercial sets and even then probably very minor in the scheme of things. But applications for them close ahead of applications for pupillage so if that’s your thing, you might as well do a Magic Circle vac scheme in the summer after your second year - useful experience/ nothing to lose.

@Karolinska Few of DDs barrister friends had multiple interviews. It’s extremely difficult to get this. Few get a lot of offers either. She only used Gateway sets. I’m not sure how up to date you are but given there are so many areas of law, students must target sets they stand a chance with. If you want criminal it’s probably easier but there’s huge competition just to get an interview and quite a few sets are Oxbridge only. Targeting where you are most likely to be successful is the best strategy. My DD would not have found a magic circle vac scheme remotely useful for family law. She was better occupied elsewhere! As I said, not everyone is commercial and not everyone needs a vac scheme in a magic circle firm. Her friends that got vac schemes wanted those jobs. Plus several
did MLaw at Cambridge so obvious high flyers.

I went to Bristol to study law (graduated 2015) with 3A*s and an A. Not a single person I was friends with who finished their third year when I did (i.e. without a third year abroad) wanted to stay there post-university. No one speaks well of their time there and other than the friendships made they hated it. Everyone left Bristol at the first opportunity tbh.

My best friends little sister graduated pre-covid (2019 class) with a law degree (despite my urging that she really go to another university). Her friends on the course all hated it. She hated it.

There was a serious drug culture (in the halls in particular) and the university did very little to address it (in both my time there and my best friends little sisters time there). They were also shockingly bad at supporting students that have mental health issues - lots of suicides in recent years and drop outs. Including in my graduating class. I don't think it's improved from what I've heard. If I were you, I would visit Bristol before she commits even as a back-up choice.

And of Oxford/Cambridge - I had friends at both doing law. Those at Oxford seemed to enjoy it more.

In terms of career...I went into the public sector after turning down a TC (MC) because I wanted a more chilled life. I earn more than some of my solicitor friends including those that went to Oxford. I earn less than some. So just to flag that a 'top' university doesn't necessarily mean best career/earning prospects.

On the LNAT...I didn't prepare and I scored well. But I recognise that not everyone is me. Some people will need to prepare for weeks.

I'm pretty up to date TizerorFizz but the vac scheme thing, as I said, is a bit of a non essential even for commercial sets, but not a bad use of a couple of weeks in the summer vac of second year. Obviously only for those wanting to go for commercial sets. I should have added that at the outset - an omission.

The number of interviews applicants get will vary enormously but I have to say that my DD had a number through Gateway as did most - but not all - of her friends from uni. By multiple I mean at multiple sets not multiple interviews at the same set - that's a given of course.

Agree about good fit but also pretty important to look at the numbers/ percentage of tenants usually recruited after pupillage.

Also agree that Bristol seems to have a not great rep among the young people atm. It's had heaps of bad press.

Bristol is perfectly fine. The press didn’t look at other suicides. Just Bristol. Many other unis have had issues and Bristol has changed a lot of things. In 2020 there were 64 student deaths in the uk. So don’t let’s assume Bristol was a lone shark.

Also DDs friends who did vac schemes, and one recently, are often more than 2 weeks. I think this one was 4. I remember DD saying a few friends took the offer of pupilage they were given and then carried on with interviews. However none were offered multiple pupilages and some dc were gifted people.

DD has quite a few friends who stayed. Working in aerospace. Everyone is different and dd didn’t expect to stay. Plenty do though.

Well no point arguing about these details really. Just as a general observation though, several of my DCs’ friends were fortunate to receive more than one offer. Four names spring to mind immediately but there are bound to be more. Three of those did have Oxbridge firsts to be fair, and two had Oxbridge Masters. Also, three of my DC did Magic Circle vac schemes in the past few years: one did a two week one and a three week one (which included an extra week in Hong Kong). The DC who is now a barrister did a two week one and the third DC did two one week ones (the two who are now solicitors both got offers). But certainly none had to spend four weeks of their summer doing these schemes. So arguably still a useful insight to the other side for those aiming for commercial sets with only a modest chunk out of the summer. But first things first for OP’s DD. And as you rightly say, many applicants haven’t the slightest interest in commercial law and find other areas vastly more interesting

I thought I'd replied. But I didn't. Both Oxford and Cambridge will have equal opportunities in terms of legal careers. She should choose the course that she likes the most.

At Oxford jurisprudence will be mandatory. At Cambridge it's optional.

I'd also recommend looking at LSE and UCL. LSE is right next to a barrister's inn. Very good for law.

Your DD needs to also think about her learning style. York have a good reputation but do their teaching for law in a very different way to most universities so something to look into. Oxbridge have lots of one to ones plus tutorials and lectures, other universities it is lecture style. DD is at Cambridge, not studying law but has law student friends at a couple of colleges and they are currently in the throes of lots of end of Y1 exams.